Culture wars really heat up over Christmas

Several readers were upset by a headline that accompanied two photos Tuesday, "Holiday trees move into place."

Holiday trees? Those are Christmas trees, they told us in no uncertain terms.

And that's how easy it is to find yourself in the middle of a "War-on-Christmas" minefield. 

This debate goes back decades, and it contains several interesting sub-arguments.

Originally, some Christians began to feel in the 1960s and '70s that the religious meaning of the holiday was being lost amid our increasing mania for buying and giving gifts.

In other words, materialism was overshadowing what was originally a religious occasion.

Some even said Santa himself was taking our eyes off the real "reason for the season," the birth of Jesus Christ.

That anger was further stoked by several court decisions forbidding the use of only Christmas displays on public property. 

Then, in about 2001, the argument took a new and more political turn when Fox News host John Gibson released a book titled, "The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday Is Worse than You Thought."

He and Fox talk show host Bill O'Reilly argued retailers, government and public organizations were self-censoring the use of "Christmas" in favor of multi-culturalism and inclusivity.

All this in a country where people identify themselves as 79 percent Christian, 16 percent unaffiliated and about 5 percent other religions, according to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life.

In 2006, a Chicago Tribune poll found 68 percent of Americans agreed there was a war on Christmas.

Putting overheated rhetoric aside, this seems like a debate between two visions, one of a general public holiday, the other of a much narrower focus on Christmas alone.

In any event, here's our newsroom policy:

We understand the desire to preserve the meaning of Christmas, and we also respect those who want to include all faiths, and even those without faith, in a seasonal celebration.

But we intend to report accurately rather than impose arbitrarily a single standard on all.

In other words, if a city calls it a holiday tree, as Auburn did last week, then we will call it a holiday tree.

And when Oxford Hills holds a "Christmas Parade," as they did yesterday, we will call it a "Christmas Parade."

Again, if it's your tree or celebration, you name it we'll report it.

But rest assured that on the day before Christmas, at the top of our front page, the Sun Journal will still wish all of our readers a "Merry Christmas," just as we have done for many years, and without contradiction or complaint.

rrhoades@sunjournal.com

The opinions expressed in this column reflect the views of the ownership and the editorial board.

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Comments

Zack Lenhert's picture

It's a tree.

It's a tree.

DONALD FERLAND's picture

There is one aspect to these

There is one aspect to these wars that I find a bit confusing. A Christmas tree is for celebrating Christmas. A day off from work to celebrate Christmas is for EVERYONE. A day off from school because of the Christmas holiday is for ALL. Yet not everyone receives the same consideration for the other holidays...Kwanza, Hanukkah, etc. Why should people who do not share the same beliefs which is causing cities, schools, businesses to change what they call all things Christmas receive the same benefits as those that belief we need to keep Christ in Christmas. We do not get the same days off to celebrate someone else's holiday. Those of us that celebrate Christmas still go to work or go to school on holidays celebrated by other cultures so why shouldn't they go to work or school when we celebrate ours. It is just funny that people complain about CHRISTmas and yet they take the same benefits from the day as those that truly celebrate the birth of Christ.

I agree with one thing, Christmas has become TOO commercialized. Stores jump from Halloween to Christmas and forget Thanksgiving. And by doing this people have lost the meaning of Thanksgiving.

Jason Theriault's picture

Call it a Christmas tree, but.....

Call it a Christmas tree, but no manger or angels or any religious symbols. The bottom line is that Christmas is a cultural as well as religious holiday. I mean, Santa Claus isn't in the bible, nor is Rudolph or Frosty.

Allisa Milliard's picture

a "christmas tree" is to

a "christmas tree" is to christmas as "halloween candy" is to halloween, the "easter bunny" is to easter, and "thanksgiving turkey" is to turkey. it is a holiday specific symbol.
the christmas tree actually has it's roots in paganism, and was adopted into the holiday as were all the other festivities and christmas symbols as it became celebrated by different cultures. while many aspects of christmas as well as it's roots are religious, it has been changed to not just a religious holiday but also a cultural one, adapting and adding to the rich tapestry that it is. even atheists can take advantage the non religious sales and holiday pay as well as gift receiving and giving.
some non christian cultures celebrate their holidays around the same time as christmas. while i still think that wishing someone a "happy holiday" sounds like slang (like saying "happy whatever"), if you don't know which (or if) cultural holiday that person celebrates but want to offer warm wishes, then "holiday" is appropriate. i just say merry christmas, the guy behind me says happy hanukkah, the next will say kwanza, and that person will say it back. no offense no foul.

Steve  Dosh's picture

Culture wars really heat up over Christmas

L S J ® readers 14:33 hst ? Sunday
l o l & Hahahah + H O , h o , H 0 O 0 º !
Raise your hand if you are a Christian
Lewiston Society of Jesuits too , now . Okay •
i am making a list, checking it twice
† y v m
/s , Santa *<;-Q~
See you on the 24th or 25th of December
( You know who you are :)
http://www.noradsanta.org/

MICHAEL LEBLANC's picture

Santa, are you listening?

Please, please, bring Dosh a new keyboard.

Steve  Dosh's picture

Mike, Ho HO hºø•Oºo *<;-Q~

Mike, Ho HO hºø•Oºo *<;-Q~
http://www.hawaiiantel.net/news/read.php?rip_id=%3CDA2SERN00%40news.ap.o...
. .† y v m • and a Happy EID , Kwanzaa , Hannukah , and various holy days to all . .. esp. la Canada & U S A
http://www.noradsanta.org/ <- the greatest fallout of the cold war , except , the internet , 'natch
Ho ho Hº*o •
 

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

Or find a way to make the one

Or find a way to make the one he has vanish.

MICHAEL LEBLANC's picture

Even better!

® ? º • †

That last one, gee, I think that could be taken for a Christian symbol! How very anti-diverse, Steve.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

Fortunately, he's harmless

Fortunately, he's harmless and good natured; sort of.

Steve  Dosh's picture

Paul , kinda' sorta ' ¿

Paul , kinda' sorta ' ¿ http://mymerrychristmas.com/2005/martha.shtml Ho ho H0O*o º *<;-Q~

AL PELLETIER's picture

Glad I'll be dead.

In the not so distant future a voter referendum backed by atheists will emerge asking Mainers to reject Christmas just as the Gay and Lesbian minority has asked Mainers to reject traditional marriage between a man and a women. Not a sore loser, just saying.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

Never know, Al. Maybe ungod

Never know, Al. Maybe ungod will keep you alive to see it happen.

Zack Lenhert's picture

...in the not so distant

...in the not so distant future Christians will try to pass a law that will put people in jail for not believing in God.

Oh wait. That already happened. http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/14697-a-year-in-jail-for-...

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

The scary part is that it's

The scary part is that it's like to be sooner than later.

Diana Currier's picture

oh Christmas tree

oh Christmas tree . MERRY CHRISTMAS to all and to all a good night.

Steve  Dosh's picture

O Tannenbaum

Mannheim Steamroller -- Christmas Celebration
Nat King Cole did a good version of it also ?
/s, Santa *< ;-Q~
email me here , kids --> http://emailsanta.com/naughty_nice.asp <--
^ Not an endorsement for a commerical site . More like a dot org ^
kid safe ...

JOANNE MOORE's picture

I love Christmas!

It's my favorite day of the year. I do not watch TV so I did not know about this so-called war. So far, no one has come into my house and told me that I could not have a tree, a turkey, all those prezzies, nor has anyone said I could not watch my tapes of The Grinch or Charlie Brown, which we do every year. I see no evidence of a war on my festivities.

That said, I am a law abiding person and a taxpayer and I know the framers of our Constitution set up a government so that the minorities would not be harmed by the tyranny of the masses. Of course, that was to protect the rich and landed gentry, but that street goes both ways and it can be interpreted to mean any minority. Religion, class, color, sex, or country of origin to name a few.

Public land belongs to all people. Not all people are in the majority. So any use of public land must respect the minority. This can be upsetting to the majority who have had their traditions taken from public places. These are often the same majority who see nothing wrong with hanging the ten commandments in public places. Just my observation. It is also my observation that the statue of liberty does not say "give me your Christians who believe in Christmas."

We are a nation whose demographics are in constant flux. There will always be minorities and their traditions are just as important to them as ours are to us. What real harm does it do to us to act with tolerance and acceptance of all?

Those of us who celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ should know the answer.

MARK GRAVE's picture

What!

The use of public lands by all religions is an exhibition in tolerance, not the restriction of use to appease a minority.

JOANNE MOORE's picture

Absolutely not!

Although most people in this country belong to (or say they do) a religion, our government is secular. It has to be. It is bound not to support any religious group. There is a separation between church and state.

Just supposing that public park was available to all religions as you wish. Do you honestly think, after reading some of the comments here, that this public park wouldn't become a battlefield? You can bet your bippy it would.

MARK GRAVE's picture

So, I hear you say that just

So, I hear you say that just because someone may be intolerant to the use of public land for religious purposes that should dictate use restrictions are necessary.

Why not punish those who interfere with peaceful assembly?

Why not stand up for freedom instead of hide from it?

JOANNE MOORE's picture

I stand up for........

..........the law of the land -- the Constitution. Ever hear of it? Ever hear of the First Amendment?

And you, of all people, to argue for public use is unbelievable.

MARK GRAVE's picture

"Congress shall make no law

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, ... "

Nowhere in the constitution does it prohibit people from assembling on public land for religious or non-religious reasons. In fact, the first amendment, summarized above, grants people the right to assemble. It clearly does not state one can only assemble for non-religious reasons.

Perhaps you are confusing people with the Government. People do have the right to use public land for religious assembly.

JOANNE MOORE's picture

"It clearly does not state.....

....one can only assemble for non-religious reasons."

It does not have to. By allowing public space to be turned into a religious scene, such as the manger scene, which is a Christian belief, government would show preference to one religion over others.

You may argue that, well, government should open public space for all religions. While an admirable sentiment, it would not be feasable in real life. Remember the uproar over the "mosque" to be built near ground zero? On private land I may add. Who would pay for the police protection for these minority religions if they were to set up a religious display in a public park?

And finally, " When the government puts its imprimatur on a particular religion it conveys a message of exclusion to all those who do not adhere to the favored beliefs. A government cannot be premised on the belief that all persons are created equal when it asserts that God favors some." Harry Blackmun, Lee v. Weisman.

This isn't just a matter of a religious group setting up a display on public land, such as the manger scene. This would involve the town (or governing body) granting a permit. This they cannot do. This has nothing to do with "peaceably assembling". This has everything to do with using public land and taxpayer dollars to maintain the peace. You, who have railed against paying taxes for the public good can't just change horses in mid-stream and decide that, oh, for religious reasons it's all right. Stick to your principals or your arguments do not hold water.

Steve  Dosh's picture

How • 

Mark , 11.12.25 14:23 hst ?
Give freely . " This land is your land , this land is my land . ." etc. You know the tune • 
http://www.nrcprograms.org/site/PageServer?pagename=naa_index
/s, Santa *<;-Q~

Allisa Milliard's picture

in a festive singing mood

in a festive singing mood tonight, are we?

MARK GRAVE's picture

Perhaps a bit more clarity is

Perhaps a bit more clarity is in order. I have no clue of what you are trying to say.

Wilma Turcotte's picture

DUH!

I guess those that choose to disagree will read things the way they choose to view and exaggerate on the point will never get it. Its people like that that got it into this mess in the first place. The whole thing was taking Christ out of Christmas and it having to be a "Holiday Tree" cause some are offended by you guessed Christ. No one has said that any other religion can't support whatever there religion is and I am not offended in the least. There have been Jewish people here for many many years and have celebrated their religion and have not had a problem with Christians celebrating Christmas and if you had read all that I wrote you would have seen thats what I said in the first place. When people choose to read what they want to, thats when the trouble starts. If someone says "Merry Christmas" to someone that isn't a Christian there is no offense intended and none should be taken.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

Good piece...The last

Good piece...The last paragraph says it all.

Wilma Turcotte's picture

Strange

Strange when someone wants things religion or other beliefs left the way they always were it is considered anger. If everyone will just celebrate there own holidays they way they always did there shouldn't be a problem. If I went to another country I wouldn't expect them to change theirs. My son had a Jewish friend when he was young and she gave him a Jewish toy for Christmas and probably still has it. Christmas is a religious holiday as Veterans Day is a military holiday, July 4th is Independence Day and so on. The only holiday that anyone seems to be hung up on is Christmas. I say if you have a problem with that its your problem and everyone else shouldn't have to deal with your problem. Get a life and let others live theirs the way they choose.

RONALD RIML's picture

You hit the nail on the head...

Wilma Turcotte wrote: "If everyone will just celebrate there own holidays they way they always did there shouldn't be a problem."

That's the problem - Christmas is not "Everyone's Holiday"

- So let only those who's it is - celebrate it.

MARK GRAVE's picture

So what is the problem

So what is the problem Ronald? Why then do people make a fuss over seeing the nativity on public land? Other religions are welcome to celebrate too on public land.

How about a little cheese with that whine?

RONALD RIML's picture

You mistake Law for Whine...

But what else would I expect from you........

MARK GRAVE's picture

I do not recall any law

I do not recall any law prohibiting or forcing one to partake in any holiday or religious activity. Perhaps you can state the specific law or laws you have in mind for me and the readers.

-Slash

RONALD RIML's picture

Your 'Recall' is no necessity....... SCOTUS Rules......

Ref. Public Land and Religious Displays - Remember, GravelMan - That Supreme Court Decision is the Ultimate Law of the Land

Three major cases have been heard by the Supreme Court concerning holiday and religious displays, the first in 1984 (Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 1984), the second in 1989 (Allegheny County v. Greater Pittsburgh ACLU, 492 U.S. 573 (1989)) , and the third in 1995 (Capitol Square Review Board v. Pinette, 515 U.S. 753 (1995)). Once decided, the court has been disinclined to deal with the minutia of decision making, and has turned down appeals as recently as 1998 concerning lower court rulings on the topic (i.e. Elewski v. Syracuse, N.Y., 123 F.3d 51(2d Cir.1998)(cert. denied 118 S.Ct.1186).

On October 31, 2011, the Supreme Court declined to review the case of Utah Highway Patrol Association v. American Atheists, with Justice Clarence Thomas offering a dissenting view in favor of hearing the case. The Court’s decision leaves in place a ruling by the U.S. Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals, which held that placing crosses along Utah highways to honor fallen state troopers violates the First Amendment’s ban on government establishment of religion.

MARK GRAVE's picture

1. The data you provide is

1. The data you provide is just superficial. You failed to dig a bit deeper. There are court rulings that support public display of religious symbols. Salazar vs. Burno (WWI cross in the Mojave National Preserve) and in 2005 courts upheld displaying the Ten Commandments on state capitol grounds in Texas.
2. The Lemon v. Kurtzman test requires the Court to consider whether a government action or policy has the purpose of endorsing religion, has a principal effect of endorsing religion, or involves excessive government entanglement with religion. If a law or policy fails any of the three prongs, it is an unconstitutional violation of the Establishment Clause.
3. In Utah Highway Patrol Association v. American Atheists, the state did not allow other religious symbols, so that was seen by the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals as government endorsement. Perhaps the Court decision would have been different if the state did not have those restrictions.

In summary, it is my opinion that a well-crafted law or policy that passes the Lemon v. Kurtzman test, such as allowing any and all religious symbols to be displayed on public lands, is constitutional. Moreover, there is case law that upheld public display of religious symbols just as there is case law that opposes it because that particular case failed the Lemon v. Kurtzman test.

RONALD RIML's picture

Are the Churches going to absorb the extra costs......

Of mowing around all their signs????

As I suspect the taxpayer side of you will piss and moan no end of it.......

MARK GRAVE's picture

Who is to say this is to be

Who is to say this is to be the case? Certainly not Ronald "tax the rich" Riml. With some imagination, if you got it, think if temporary religious symbols to celebrate, say Christmas. I don't think Maine is mowing that may lawns in December - who'd of thunk? Not Ronald "tax the rich" Riml.

RONALD RIML's picture

"Tax the Rich"

Thank you for the Sobriquet.

I'd rather be known for one wanting to tax the rich - rather than the poor. There's more $$$ to be found among this group.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

"Tax the rich, feed the poor.

"Tax the rich, feed the poor. 'Til there are no rich no more."
Then what?

RONALD RIML's picture

I have complete faith there will always be 'Rich'

Mark's Greed Factor is that strong........

MARK GRAVE's picture

Dear Ronald "I hate the rich"

Dear Ronald "I hate the rich" Riml,

1. You are right; there will aways be rich because there will always be masses of people ready to buy junk. People willing give me their money.

2. We live in an upside down world when you are called greedy just for wanting to keep more of what you earn. I assert the greedy ones are those who what what I earn.

Cheers,

America's Mr. Right.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

Are you saying the rich will

Are you saying the rich will bear the burden of unequal taxation and just tough it out?

MARK GRAVE's picture

1. The rich already pay a

1. The rich already pay a disproportionate burden of federal revenue.
2. Not they should not tough it out. The rich need to fight for tax equity - flat rate, no deductions for all.

RONALD RIML's picture

I'm saying what I wrote.

And I'm sure the Rich will be able to tough it out over the Poor - as they always have. Unless the poor have had enough.

As happens occasionally.

MARK GRAVE's picture

Ronald "hate the rich"

Ronald "hate the rich" Riml,

I think you meant the following:

Unless the poor has not taken enough, which happens frequently.

America's Mr. Right

MARK GRAVE's picture

Is that the communist

Is that the communist manifesto?

MARK GRAVE's picture

Please don't present a false

Please don't present a false dichotomy for the readers - tax the rich or tax the poor. How about neither taxing the rich nor taxing the poor, but cut GD spending instead.

Yes, that means cut spending across the board including military spending.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

The Pirate has long been a

The Pirate has long been a supporter of across the board spending cuts. EVERYONE takes a xx% hit at whatever rate is agreed upon. And yet, you never hear across the board cuts mentioned by anyone. Why is that?

MARK GRAVE's picture

Money gives politicians

Money gives politicians power, power to dole it out to those who support their agenda.

Starve the beast I say, take the money out of Washington and let the cancer rot the organism from the inside out.

MARK GRAVE's picture

Please don't present a false

Please don't present a false dichotomy for the readers - tax the rich or tax the poor. How about neither taxing the rich nor taxing the poor, but cut GD spending instead.

Yes, that means cut spending across the board including military spending.

RONALD RIML's picture

We should cut the spending that protects your patents......

See how you like your ox getting gored.

MARK GRAVE's picture

You can call me slash. Guess

You can call me slash. Guess what, the country is broke...

RONALD RIML's picture

I'm glad you finally got off your butt and did some research....

That's a first for you, Mark.

Your summary opinion is also too over-reaching and superficial, for the same reason you allege mine is.

Your 'remedy' of "allowing any and all religious symbols to be displayed on public lands" would compel citizens to fund - thus support - religious institutions and activities; a violation of Lemon.

MARK GRAVE's picture

Ronald "tax the rich"

Ronald "tax the rich" Riml,

Let's recap this discussion:

1. You claimed that it is against the law to display religious symbols on public land. I disagreed. You cited three cases. I can prove you wrong with one example that contradicts your premise. I did that- Q.E.D.
2. I introduced you to the lemon test and stated that a well-crafted law that does not violate the lemon test.
3. You presented only one scenario, purposefully contrived, to fail the lemon test in an attempt prove your original point, which I briefly summarized in 1.. Again, only one example contrary to your assertion is needed to prove you are wrong. That I did.

In closing, I have proved sufficiently that religious symbols can in fact be displayed on public land if it meets the lemon test Q.E.D.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

We don't always agree on

We don't always agree on stuff, Wilma, but you get 5 stars on this one.

RONALD RIML's picture

O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum

O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum,
wie treu sind deine Blätter!
Du grünst nicht nur zur Sommerszeit,
nein auch im Winter, wenn es schneit.
O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum,
wie treu sind deine Blätter!

O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum,
du kannst mir sehr gefallen!
Wie oft hat nicht zur Weihnachtszeit
ein Baum von dir mich hoch erfreut!
O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum,
du kannst mir sehr gefallen!

O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum,
dein Kleid will mich was lehren:
die Hoffnung und Beständigkeit
gibt Trost und Kraft zu aller Zeit.
O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum,
dein Kleid will mich was lehren.

Allisa Milliard's picture

wasn't the christmas tree

wasn't the christmas tree adopted from germanic tradition? but wasn't it was once a pagan decoration for sthe winter solstice before christianity adopted it? the yule log was.

Allisa Milliard's picture

wasn't the christmas tree

wasn't the christmas tree adopted from germanic tradition? but wasn't it was once a pagan decoration for sthe winter solstice before christianity adopted it? the yule log was.

Allisa Milliard's picture

wasn't the christmas tree

wasn't the christmas tree adopted from germanic tradition? but wasn't it was once a pagan decoration for sthe winter solstice before christianity adopted it? the yule log was.

Allisa Milliard's picture

sorry for the 3 posts,

sorry for the 3 posts, computer problems. and i assure you i haven't started in in the holiday wine, as my spelling and grammar might suggest. i just shredded 2 fresh pumpkins by hand and my dexterity seems to be off

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

Is that how it went before or

Is that how it went before or after the Fuehrer?

MARK GRAVE's picture

Ronald “cut-n-paste” Riml

Ronald “cut-n-paste” Riml strikes again.

RONALD RIML's picture

Mark "Cut-n-Slash" Gravel Rears his Head Again....

and a Merry Freakin' Christmas to You, Too...... ;)

MARK GRAVE's picture

Hey, I kind of like the title

Hey, I kind of like the title – Cut-n-Slash Gravel – the government budget buster super hero.

You can just call me Slash.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

The parrot has often

The parrot has often affectionately referred to you as "The Blade".

Wilma Turcotte's picture

Thank you

Thank you Sun-Journal for keeping Christmas on your front page and not knuckling to the ones wanting it to be only a "holiday" Merry Christmas to all of you as well.

Steve  Dosh's picture

" Holy-day " /s Santa *<

" Holy-day " /s Santa *< ;-Q~

Wilma Turcotte's picture

Christmas

This shouldn't be about race wars or religious wars but it has all turned that way since we have had alot of new immigrants. Christians have never asked them not to celebrate their holidays whatever they are. I am 72 yrs old and have always had a CHRISTMAS tree, CHRISTMAS presents, CHRISTMAS dinner, CHRISTMAS shopping and SANTA CLAUS and a CHRISTMAS parade when he arrived but a few years ago there was a tremendous group of our new immigrates that lined Lisbon Street yelling obscenities and throwing things at SANTA as he arrived in town. As soon as the immigration to this country began we have gone to "holiday trees" no wishing people a MERRY CHRISTMAS when you are out shopping which if it wasn't CHRISTMAS no one would be shopping or BLACK FRIDAY. I will not shop in a store that can't wish me MERRY CHRISTMAS. I do not oppose other people celebrating their holidays whatever they are and never would be offended if someone wished me HAPPY HANUKKAH or a Menorah in the middle of town but to be allowed to have a MANGER. Its pretty obvious I am not a Muslim but I am not offended if you want to celebrate whatever your holiday is. I sure saw alot of people that opposed our CHRISTMAS out in the middle of the night taking advantage of the sales on OUR CHRISTMAS. Celebrate what ever your holiday is and if I knew what it was would wish you a happy one if that is what is done but don't try to change ours. We have had it a long time before you came here. MERRY CHIRSTMAS TO ALL.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

50 agrees.

50 agrees.

MARK GRAVE's picture

This behavior cuts both ways.

This behavior cuts both ways. If Christmas is simply a holiday, then perhaps we need to make all references to religious celebrations "holiday" or call each by their proper name, such as Christmas, etc.

RONALD RIML's picture

Happy Feast of the Circumcision Day...

(the most appropriate Holiday of the Calender for you, Mark)

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

Lol....you don't have much

Lol....you don't have much will power do you? 0O:-)

MARK GRAVE's picture

Thank you for exposing your

Thank you for exposing your maturity level for all readers.

RONALD RIML's picture

Thanks for leading the way.

.

Irony

It's ironic that a comment regarding a holiday supposedly about love is so tinged with anger. In any case, to you who celebrates Christmas, and to those who celebrate Hanukhah, Kwanzaa, Eid, or the Solstice, I wish nothing but a happy holiday season. As for me, I look forward to a delightful Festivus. Festivus for the rest of us! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8g4Ztf7hIM

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

The anger comes from

The anger comes from repeatedly being told it isn't what it is. It's called defending what is yours and challenging those who would take it from you.

Silly Pirate

Don't be so silly. Unless Christians believe they own the entire month of December and public spheres as well, nothing that is theirs is under any attack. This is a holiday season in which those of us who grew up in the Christian tradition celebrate Christmas, while others celebrate Eid, Hanukhah, Kwanzaa, and others. Thus, as I said, it is a season of holidays. We are each free to celebrate our own as we wish, and as long as that freedom persists, your notion of being under attack is ridiculous. I have yet to see any evidence that Jews are invading private Christian homes on December 25 in order to rip down stockings in order to put up menorahs and force children to sing The Dradle Song at gunpoint. Similarly, secular humanists have thus far had better things to do than burglarize homes in order to destroy trees and put up Festivus poles. Of course, if that came to pass, I would join in the fight against such treachery....after I stopped laughing, of course.

MARK GRAVE's picture

I think you missed the entire

I think you missed the entire theme of the original message – you think?

Which message are you referring to?

It's your right to think that, but I think otherwise. If you'd care to elaborate (including specifying exactly which message it is whose themes you think I've missed), we can go from there. But I'm going to limit my participation in the back and forth. No one will be well served by our talking past each other for multiple rounds.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

So, profdiddy has spoken, eh?

So, profdiddy has spoken, eh?

Steve  Dosh's picture

Culture wars really heat up over Christmas

all , 20:00 HST • 
Cul-cha ? It always makes me think of some form of nas†y tasting Bulgarian goat cheese inspired yoghourt
i am guilty also , though LSJ ® 
Just today i had to ask some of my Buddhist acquaintances what , if anything , do they celebrate ?
Most people in the world celebrate Eastern ( not Western ) religions
i freely admit i am a cad
The important thing is to ßelieve . In P N G many don't believe ( Papua New Guinea ) . Some are head hunters and they also eat people . " He was a - v e r y - good man . " " Yum . " " Ladyfingers . My favorite . "
Happy Hannukah , Kwaanza , Ramaden , Shalom , Salem , and Peace to all , En'sh'Allah , O'ja'la and God Willing . To all Jews , Muslims and Christians - we worship the same , yes the very same , one God , call him Allah , Yaweh or just plain 'ole God . That he's presumed to be male is a whole 'nother discussion ! It's simply Christ's Mass , celebrating the birth of the baby Jesus
Melé Kalikimaka , /s , Sandy Claus *< ;-Q~
http://emailsanta.com/naughty_nice.asp kids •
b t w - Buddhists celebrate Chinese New Years , Year of the Dragon , ayuh

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