L. Hoy: The government we deserve

In a democracy, citizens get the government they deserve. A majority of America’s voters elected this government — twice. Barack Obama promised to transform America in 2008; he sought permission to finish that transformation in 2012. This fall, the glue that holds that promised transformation’s various elements together will set, securing its basic structure.

This fall, Obamacare will fully deploy. With the exception of unions and big corporations that will bargain for special exemptions, Obamacare will ensnare America in its tentacles. Desperate attempts to defund the law’s implementation will fail. Many people, still with jobs, will work 30-hour weeks as burdened businesses struggle to survive the act’s bewildering blizzard of fees, fines and regulations.

This fall, Democrats will force another rise in the debt ceiling. The Fed will turn up the printing presses to cover new entitlement spending. Reams of this funny money will devalue the country's currency and drive inflation upward even as the stock market soars. Wall Street gets new Monopoly money and puts hotels on Boardwalk and Park Place. Main Street gets new taxes and lays off more employees.

This fall, congressional hearings on Benghazi and the IRS will sputter into irrelevance in the face of continued bureaucratic stonewalling. An impregnable federal bureaucracy will successfully defy political authority and congressional accountability and control America.

This fall, the good faith and credit of America as friend or enemy will go the way of its currency and the economy: squandered.

This fall, people will discover the government they deserve.

Leonard Hoy, Greenwood

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 's picture

mismash of contradictory unfounded ascertions

Let the Lewiston Sun print this letter two years from now. Let's click off the right-ons and wow that's wrong.
I'll bet the US dollar will be as sound as it is today. Inflation will be low and certainly no threat to economic expansion. And Obamacare will be working, saving lives, cutting costs for working Americans, and relieving businesses of costs they should not incur and are uncompetitive with the rest of the world.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

What did we do, take away the

What did we do, take away the agrees and disgrees again. Lefties been whining again?

FRANK EARLEY's picture

I agree with the loss of the agrees.....................

We should post our displeasure over this system of balancing our approval or disapproval of our posts. Personally If I were ever to say something stupid, as absurd as that might sound, I would rather know about it right away, than go on for days barking up the wrong tree.
Here we go again, I wish the Sun Journal, would explain what the problem is, seems to me, there's a large enough group of regular posters, who have been doing this awhile, to at leas have a say in how this whole thing works. If someone is insulted or angered by being disagreed with to many times, we need to know what the problem is. A majority of us enjoy the Opinion Poll, also known as the Agree or Disagree at the end of each post. Without it, sometimes I feel like I talking to the wind.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

I'll give you 10 "AGREES" on

I'll give you 10 "AGREES" on that one, Frank.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

Healthcare is not a right!

Healthcare is not a right!

 's picture

Hey, Mr Hoy -

We elected LePage, didn't we, and with a far less plurality than Obama got. You get what you pay for. And we're paying for it in this state. As far as the Affordable Care Act is concerned, it's working really well for me. Thank you, President Obama.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

Wait till reality introduces

Wait till reality introduces itself to your wallet on October 1st.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

"As far as the Affordable

"As far as the Affordable Care Act is concerned, it's working really well for me. "

1. CBO costs of ACA keep rising.
2. Many business are dumping benefits for spousal healthcare - http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-your-boss-is-dumping-your-wife-2013...
3. Walgreens to dump 160,000 employee's healthcare - https://www.google.com/search?q=Companies+dumping+healthcare&ie=utf-8&oe...

"Walgreen’s decision affects about 160,000 current employees and follows similar action this year by Sears Holdings Corp. (SHLD) and Darden Restaurants Inc. (DRI) As an alternative to administering a traditional health plan, all three will send their employees to an exchange run byAon Plc. (AON) Fourteen more companies will join in 2014 when 600,000 people will participate, Aon said." See link above.

Etcetera, Etcetra...

Real good there Frank, real good.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

If the Affordable Care Act is

If the Affordable Care Act is so good, why are Congress and the unions seeking to be made exempt from it? Why is it great for the peons and not for the ruling class?

RONALD RIML's picture

Post a link to substantiate your claims

Congress and an Exemption from ‘Obamacare’?

Q: Is it true that there are bills in Congress that would exempt members and their staffs and families from buying into “Obamacare”?

A: No. Congress members and staffers will be required to buy insurance through the exchanges on Jan. 1.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

My post stated that they are

My post stated that they are "seeking to be made exempt from it". That is a fact; exemptions from oBAMacare have been sought by both members of Congress and unions.

RONALD RIML's picture

Then post a link identifying the "Theys' to which you refer

That will clear it up for both of us.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

I believe sentence number two

I believe sentence number two clearly identities "they".

MARK GRAVEL's picture

Kudos. In closing, Healthcare


In closing, Healthcare is not a right, which Ronald asserts.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

No mention of healthcare

No mention of healthcare being a human right exists in the U.S. Constitution, the Bill of Rights, nor the Ten Commandments.

AL PELLETIER's picture


Social Security and Medicare aren't in there either, but I'm some damn happy I've got both!

MARK GRAVEL's picture

That is a selfish thought!

That is a selfish thought! Those who are paying your bill may not be too happy.

Yes, the average American will collect more in benefits than they will contribute - much more. Someone has to make up the difference.

AL PELLETIER's picture

I haven't used my quota yet.

I paid into the system for 52 years. Nobody but me paid the bill.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

How do you know what your

How do you know what your quota is? They pay you until you die.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

Let's do a quantitative

Let's do a quantitative analysis if you don't mind.

How much in absolute dollar terms do you feel that you paid into the system?

Also, funding government is a pay as you go system, so the dollars you paid into the system each years funded benefits in that year.

Okay, first things first. How much many dollars did you contribute over those 52 years?

MARK GRAVEL's picture


Okay, first things first. How many dollars did you contribute over those 52 years?

The takeaway from this is that your money is not in a savings like account accumulating interest.

AL PELLETIER's picture

How many dollars?

Probably more then you've earned in your lifetime.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

While I think personal wealth

While I think personal wealth is a private matter, I will did deeper since you opened this discussion on this forum.

How many dollars? Give it up to the readers. Let me tell you right now that I know the averages people pay from each state, and I know the tax rules, so lets be honest in your answer.

RONALD RIML's picture

Don't hide your lamp under a basket

Do share.....

MARK GRAVEL's picture

This lamp is hidden under a

This lamp is hidden under a basked that is made every 10 years, the last being 2011.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

If you are suggesting that

If you are suggesting that Mr. Gravel is/has not been a productive earner, Al, you may be wrong on that count. I've been paying into the SS "fund" more years than you have, and I realize that I'll probably not pull out of it what I've paid into it. There were even periods in my earning days when I would get a "raise" around August or September because I would have reached my SS payments "quota". I suppose that made me one of those nasty people who weren't paying their fair share into the system.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

Given that I'm self-employed,

Given that I'm self-employed, I need to pay both employer and employee share of SS. That said, it is highly unlikely that Al has paid more into the system that I have personally. Al does not seem to have the skills set to be self-employed. There is not much you can do with "would you like to super size that meal" skill set.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

Did someone hurt you?

Did someone hurt you?

MARK GRAVEL's picture

Ronald, after watching you

Ronald, after watching you for over 2 years, I really see a tendency for you to attack independent minded and successful people. Where does that anger come from? Did someone hurt you?

MARK GRAVEL's picture

The smell of envy on an

The smell of envy on an autumn day.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

The smell of envy on a autumn

The smell of envy on a autumn day.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

Readers, haven't you noticed

Readers, haven't you noticed that Al gets very quite when pressed for facts?

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

Hot damn where is that Agree

Hot damn where is that Agree and Disagree option when you need it?

AL PELLETIER's picture

And Readers have you noticed

When your searching for a bulls--- fix, Gravel is always there for you.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

Or launches personal attacks,

Or launches personal attacks, but never backs up his assertions. Is it because he cannot?

RONALD RIML's picture

Remember: I backed up my accusations of you being Racist

with very definitive links to your old postings of biased Anti-Mexican Rants.

Another thought to ponder: By Mark Gravel, Sun, 04/28/2013 - 12:18

"Another thought to ponder:

Ask yourself why Mexico is such a miserable place to live. Perhaps that is a function of their culture. Now ask yourself, why do we want to import those cultural attitudes via illegal immigration without checks, balances, and measures?"

MARK GRAVEL's picture

Okay, let me educate you

Okay, let me educate you again. A country is not a race. What I said is no different than saying the American culture and its attitudes about guns. Are not guns a function if the American culture.

The takeaway here Ronald, you are looking for something that does not exist. Hey, but if this ups your down do it with "caution."

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

The Pirate always thought

The Pirate always thought that was a pretty good post. Parts of Mexico ARE miserable places to live. Mexico is nothing without its culture; good or bad. If there is bad (as there is some bad in everyone) why would we want to allow that bad aspect to cross our borders illegally?
Sorry, V, but it was a great post.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

The problem with Ronald is

The problem with Ronald is that he has difficulty distinguishing a country from a race. He actually thinks Mexico is a monolithic race, which even the parrot knows it is not.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

The parrot? He couldn't tell

The parrot? He couldn't tell a Mexican from a Swede.

RONALD RIML's picture

Mark didn't say "Parts of Mexico are miserable"

Read what he Mark actually wrote - then base your judgement on that - not what you know reality to be. That is where Mark's racism arises from.

"Ask yourself why Mexico is such a miserable place to live. Perhaps that is a function of their culture."

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

I guess we'll have to agree

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Where's the button?....oh, damn, they took it away.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

When I travel to Asia, I have

When I travel to Asia, I have friends that are afraid to come to America because they think we American's are to violent. I don't agree with them, but I never think their comments are racist.

Again, Mexico is not a race, it is a country with an amalgamation of races - be cautious with your claims.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

Agreed. Not at the mercy of

Agreed. Not at the mercy of Medicare quite yet as I'm still covered under my wife's plan. I dread having to go on Medicare, especially if the obamaCare kicks in full blast. We've been told lies on top of lies over this thing and we're about to find it all out. If it were really that good, Al, why would Congressional staff members and their families be seeking exempt status from the 'Affordable' Care Act? Same with some of the unions; they want no part of it. People who rely on affordable healthcare insurance are not in a good place right now. And, we can argue all day long about whose fault it is, but, that we are in trouble is undeniable.

AL PELLETIER's picture

Thank God for Medicare

Paul, just like you, I was on my wife's health insurance plan when I was self employed and before I retired four years ago. My Medicare kicked in at 65. Last month I landed in the hospital for five days with acute pancreatitis. Had I still been on my wife's insurance the $6,000 deductible and 20% co-pay would now be hanging over our heads. Thanks to Medicare my total obligation is $.0.
Do you think Congressional staff members might be trying to get around Obamacare because the health insurance they have now is paid for by you and me, but with Obamacare, they might have to start paying premiums like us poor folks?
As Obama said in a speech today, "if Obamacare turns out to be the horrible disaster Republicans say it will be, as Americans, we can get rid of it by referendum".
There is something that we know as fact, health care cost and insurance rates are an abomination and something has to be done to fix it. And we also know as fact, Republicans haven't a clue about how to do it.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

No one knows how to fix it;

No one knows how to fix it; democrats or republicans, but it's becoming clearer every day that obamacare is not the answer. Would you trade the whole car because the left front tire needs air?

MARK GRAVEL's picture

For some, the answer is yes;

For some, the answer is yes; now we have a pinto.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

I stand enlightened. I owned

I stand enlightened.
I owned a Pinto wagon in the '70's. Bought it new in '74. Took it to Canada once. Couldn't maintain enough speed on the grades to keep the pulp haulers from continually passing us. Cute little piece of crap, but crap no less.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

I never owned a pinto, but I

I never owned a pinto, but I heard they where a "blast" to drive.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

The only favor that Pinto

The only favor that Pinto ever did me was when it went to my ex as part of the divorce settlement. Now THAT was a blast.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

Where -> were (not enough

Where -> were (not enough sleep)

MARK GRAVEL's picture

"health care cost and

"health care cost and insurance rates are an abomination and something has to be done to fix it."

Having the federal government mandate that everyone buy insurance is surely not going to do a dame thing about healthcare costs.

Hell, the insurance companies now have a captive audience.

Cosmetic surgery costs have risen less than CPI growth where as primary care costs have risen much faster than CPI growth.


AL PELLETIER's picture

Why does State Farm have the cheapest insurance?

Because their pool of insured is much larger then their competition. Mandating insurance will create a much larger pool of insured, spreading the risk, resulting in lowering cost. Insurance 101. Look it up.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

That might all work in the

That might all work in the classroom, Al, but in the real world of "Screw the Consumer" 101, the economies of scale will be hard pressed to apply.

AL PELLETIER's picture

In the real world?

I was a licensed insurance agent (health, life and casualty) for ten years for Tufts Health, Blue Cross+Blue Shield and Progressive Auto and "in the real world" if customers think your screwing them they'll shop you, EVERY TIME! And if your price is to high for the same coverage they'll drop you like a fresh dog t---.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

Economics 101: How do you

Economics 101:

How do you protect the population from price fixing amongst the insurance companies? If I must buy insurance, the population does not have the option of NOT purchasing insurance, so that variable to control prices is removed from the economic equation.

Yes, costs will vary slightly between company -to- company a bit, but they are guaranteed not to lose the customers base.

Moreover, as larger insurance companies start to merge with smaller companies, then there is less incentive to price a product right for the captive audience.

All that we have to do is look at other products or services that the American population has difficulty walking away from, such as communication and energy. Just look how consolidation in these markets have provided choices for the consumer, or more appropriately, provided fewer choices.

In summary, a closed economic market will drive the larger insurance companies to gobble up smaller companies to gain market share. Like we have seen in communications and energy, there will eventually be a few big players. However, in the case of healthcare, Americans will not be able to walk away by law.

Brilliant! ACA will force fewer, more expensive choices in healthcare. Consider this my prediction.

AL PELLETIER's picture

And my prediction.

By law, if you drive a car you must purchase liability insurance. Allstate, State Farm, Liberty Mutual, Gieco, Progressive, etc. and more then 300 independent insurers are trying to get your automobile insurance dollar. And your predicting just a few big players will be left chasing your health care insurance dollars? I've considered your prediction and ain't buying.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

There are only 4 large

There are only 4 large insurance underwriters in the country. You just can't look a the shingle on the door (i.e. the facade).

For example, just look at all the products you buy at the grocery store with differ facades, but are all own, manufactured, and sold by Proctor and Gamble.

Engage the brain All, and don't think on the surface layer.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

In the world of oBAMacare,

In the world of oBAMacare, bank robberies will increase 50 fold.

AL PELLETIER's picture

The sky is falling!

said Chicken Little

MARK GRAVEL's picture

Stock Tip: In vest in the

Stock Tip:

In vest in the maker of preperation-H. This stock is predicted to increase bacause consumers will need relief from the the ACS screwing. Moreover, the deep pockets of ACA will foot the bill for people.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

Careful, friend, LePage got

Careful, friend, LePage got his arse in a real sling over his frivolous use of the word Vaseline.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

That is what I said too.

That is what I said too. However, I do have an open mind, and I will read Ronald's citation if he ever gets around to providing one.

I will not hold my breath.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

How can you ask for links to

How can you ask for links to substantiate one's claim when you say healthcare is a human right but provide absolutely no substantiating evidence?

Adults call that being a hypocrite.

RONALD RIML's picture

U.N.'s Universal Declaration of Human Rights

MARK GRAVEL's picture

Like I said, it carries the

Like I said, it carries the same amount of weight as "Ronald Riml's Universal Declaration of Human Rights."

Moreover, everyone of these so called rights means someone has to lose their right.

1. To give food to one, means you must have taken it from another.
2. To give housing to one, means you took housing from another.
3. To give medicine to one, means you took medicine from another.

This is not to say charity is not a moral and laudable goal. Providing "rights" to one at the point of a gun on another is by no means moral.

RONALD RIML's picture

And the basis of your right to gather and keep wealth???

Where is that found??

MARK GRAVEL's picture

There is a number of

There is a number of safeguards in the constitution [1]. That said, these are rights granted by man which are increasingly infringed on by people with the same mind set as yours, unfortunately.

The same right that you have to protect me from entering your house and taking your possessions is the same right I have to keep people like you from taking my possessions, which includes money.

After all, if you can justify taking my money becomes someone "needs" it, I can justify taking your bed and sheets to give to someone who "needs" it.

If one action is wrong, then both actions are wrong.

[1] http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2011/04/04/the-constitution-and-property...

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

At the end of the barrel of

At the end of the barrel of my 12 gauge Winchester.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

That too. Be careful, Ronald

That too.

Be careful, Ronald may think the Parrot has accumulated too many sunflower seeds. He may enter your home and take some to give to the chickadee down the street. After all, it is getting colder outside and the Chickadee did not gather enough seeds because he sang and flew around all summer long. However, Ronald will claim the Chickadee has a mental illness, a mental illness call liberalism, and needs assistance due to bad judgement.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

The parrot sez he knows

The parrot sez he knows exactly the chicadee you're talking about. Sez he's been wanting to "hook up" with her for years.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

Tell the parrot to be

Tell the parrot to be careful, there are lots of seed pickers (aka gold diggers) out there.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

I continually remind him of

I continually remind him of who it is that feeds him.

MARK GRAVEL's picture


Good try ;-)

RONALD RIML's picture

Of course you'll argue this

But you would argue 'Up' is 'Down' and "In" is "Out" to suit your own Orwellian needs.


Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.


Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

The Commission on Human Rights was made up of 18 members from various political, cultural and religious backgrounds. Eleanor Roosevelt, widow of American President Franklin D. Roosevelt, chaired the UDHR drafting committee. With her were René Cassin of France, who composed the first draft of the Declaration, the Committee Rapporteur Charles Malik of Lebanon, Vice-Chairman Peng Chung Chang of China, and John Humphrey of Canada, Director of the UN’s Human Rights Division, who prepared the Declaration’s blueprint. But Mrs. Roosevelt was recognized as the driving force for the Declaration’s adoption.

The Commission met for the first time in 1947. In her memoirs, Eleanor Roosevelt recalled:

“Dr. Chang was a pluralist and held forth in charming fashion on the proposition that there is more than one kind of ultimate reality. The Declaration, he said, should reflect more than simply Werstern ideas and Dr. Humphrey would have to be eclectic in his approach. His remark, though addressed to Dr. Humprhey, was really directed at Dr. Malik, from whom it drew a prompt retort as he expounded at some length the philosophy of Thomas Aquinas. Dr. Humphrey joined enthusiastically in the discussion, and I remember that at one point Dr. Chang suggested that the Secretariat might well spend a few months studying the fundamentals of Confucianism!”

The final draft by Cassin was handed to the Commission on Human Rights, which was being held in Geneva. The draft declaration sent out to all UN member States for comments became known as the Geneva draft.

The first draft of the Declaration was proposed in September 1948 with over 50 Member States participating in the final drafting. By its resolution 217 A (III) of 10 December 1948, the General Assembly, meeting in Paris, adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights with eight nations abstaining from the vote but none dissenting. Hernán Santa Cruz of Chile, member of the drafting sub-Committee, wrote:

“I perceived clearly that I was participating in a truly significant historic event in which a consensus had been reached as to the supreme value of the human person, a value that did not originate in the decision of a worldly power, but rather in the fact of existing—which gave rise to the inalienable right to live free from want and oppression and to fully develop one’s personality. In the Great Hall…there was an atmosphere of genuine solidarity and brotherhood among men and women from all latitudes, the like of which I have not seen again in any international setting.”

The entire text of the UDHR was composed in less than two years. At a time when the world was divided into Eastern and Western blocks, finding a common ground on what should make the essence of the document proved to be a colossal task.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

By the way Ronald,

By the way Ronald, "Orwellian" in the context of Orwell refers the excesses of government control, regulation, and oppression. Given that I always advocate for less government (i.e. less control, regulation, and oppression), I cannot be "Orwellian" by definition.

Perhaps your up is down, so that is why you say I'm "Orwellian."

Oh, pharmaceuticals do make medication make your up, that is down, up again. No, No, I'm talking about Viagra. I'm addressing the illness call liberalism.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

Giddyup, eh?

Giddyup, eh?

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

They should have called it

How's all that Human Rights willy wag been working for the World in the past 65 years? That particular confluence of officials was nothing more than the first step towards Universal World Government. Good shot, though.

RONALD RIML's picture

So how would Non-Human Rights

work out for the St. Jean Clan.....???

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

There is little evidence to

There is little evidence to show that the struggle for human rights world wide is no more successful than the wars on poverty and drugs. Money pits; nothing more.
I suspect the St. Jean "Clan", as you put it, will do quite well, human rights or no as long as our government entitlements don't give out. 0O:-)

MARK GRAVEL's picture

A right to stuff is not a

A right to stuff is not a human right when one must suppress rights of others to provide said stuff.

Perhaps the freedom to go earn your own stuff without having some oppressive force controlling your freedom is a human right. Freedom is a prime example of a human right that exists without taking freedom from another.

When one man is allowed to determine how much wealth another man can accumulate, freedom takes a blow.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

I've read this before. So

I've read this before. So tell me, what is the difference between you or the human rights commission writing that healthcare is a human right?

Does it make is so?

My mom used to tell me that I'm a good singer, does that make is so? Well, you know I don't work in the entertainment industry, right?

The takeaway here is that just because some thinks healthcare is a human right does not make is so.

Moreover, when does a human right require infringing on another human's rights. Meaning, since when does one human right require taking money by lethal force from someone else. For example, the freedom of the press does not mean you have to deny someone else freedom. The freedom of assembly does not mean you have to deny someone else freedom to assemble.

However, your right to healthcare absolutely means you have to deny someone else the freedom of their earnings. That is not a human right by any means.


PAUL ST JEAN's picture

The rights of one individual

The rights of one individual should never come at the expense of the rights of another.

FRANK EARLEY's picture

Why do these people do it????????

In reading this letter, I was trying to understand the fears the writer had with the impending ACA. It's getting harder and harder to weed out the misinformed complainers from the actually confused citizen. This letter was going fine until it turned into just another FOX NEWS fueled rant.
Evidently everything that has ever happened in life, as well as everything that will occur in life, has to have some connection to Benghazi.
I have a news flash for all you right wing conspiracy theorist out there, and there are still tons of you out there. These theories have been investigated and debunked, at least to the point of making them non issues. Get over it and move on..........

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

It just kills you people to

It just kills you people to admit that twice electing oBAMa was a huge mistake, doesn't it, Frank?

FRANK EARLEY's picture

No, I wouldn't say that.....

Would you be happier with Mitt Romney in office???????????

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

In some ways, definitely not,

In some ways, definitely not, but I am unable to imagine the scenario in which he would not have been the lesser of the two evils. My votes in presidential elections have gone that way since the Reagan years. Vote for the lesser of two evils or vote against the guy you dislike most (there was always one). It's gut wrenching, but I just can't get myself to stay home on election night.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

They do it because they know

They do it because they know something you don't.

AL PELLETIER's picture

Still tons of them out there?

Hell Frank, there are still tons of them out there who still insist Obama was born in Kenya.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

Likewise, there are tons of

Likewise, there are tons of people out there with their heads so far up Obama's a**, they cannot tell day from night.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

Ever hear him say Pakistan or

Ever hear him say Pakistan or Afghanistan? The exact pronunciation you might expect from someone who spent a significant portion of their life in Africa.

AL PELLETIER's picture


Ever hear Arnold say California? And he was the governor.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

Often, but then, he

Often, but then, he mispronounces everything while laughing all the way to the bank.

 's picture


You're kidding, right? Perhaps he's using the native Pakistani or Afghani pronunciation.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

That's exactly right. Only a

That's exactly right. Only a foreigner would be sensitive to true 'native' pronunciation of a foreign country. A true native American (no, not the Indians) wouldn't give two squats about that kind of pronunciation. Can you imagine George Bush saying PAH-KEE-STAHN or AHF-GAH-NEE-STAHN?

 's picture


I can't even imagine Dubya pronouncing nuclear correctly - his trouble with the English language is legendary.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

Hahaha....I know, but he's

Hahaha....I know, but he's not the only one who has fallen in love with the word 'nuculer'. I hear it on TV all the time and it isn't just limited to FOX. In, fact, they are one of the lesser offenders.
Hey, as a sidebar, what ever happened to Dan Breton?

 's picture

It's interesting how you latch onto Benghazi ...

... but ignore the IRS controversy. Perhaps it's because Lois "I'm innocent and now I invoke the 5th" Lerner got the boot the other day, although it will be a comfortable boot - pension and bennies in reward for screwing over US taxpayers.

That's the difference between the two issues. More than a year after the fact, not one person has lost his job or even been reprimanded for the admitted monumental incompetence in the State Department. But in the immortal words of she-who-would-be-queen, at this late date, what difference does it make?

I have a news flash for you, Frank. The only reason these things may have become non-issues are people who are all too eager to absolve this administration of any responsibility for anything.

And I'm disappointed. You of all people should be able to identify a confused citizen. Locate the nearest mirror.

FRANK EARLEY's picture

Please refresh my memory............

What exactly was the conspiracy with the IRS? Wasn't it due to the right leaning groups starting to hallucinate that they and only they were being targeted by the IRS, for the purpose of tax free status. When in fact both Liberal and Conservative groups were targeted. The only action taken by the IRS was against liberals . No action at all was taken against the right.
Is this still a conspiracy????????????????

MARK GRAVEL's picture

"What exactly was the

"What exactly was the conspiracy with the IRS? "

You are right; who needs conspiracy theories with truths like these:

 's picture


This chart is still useless. How many were denied?

MARK GRAVEL's picture

The allegation was

The allegation was harassment. There is enough data in the chart to show that. Moreover, if the IRS denies an application, it can be appealed in tax court, and the IRS decision may be over turned. Hence, it is better just to sit on the application because they will neither be denied nor approved, just remain in a state of limbo.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

What's the matter, you can't

What's the matter, you can't do the math? Even the parrot was able to figure it out.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

... and the parrot is a

... and the parrot is a Democrat.

 's picture


What kind of math are you doing that shows you how many were denied or rejected?

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

The outstandings are as good

The outstandings are as good as denials. Notice the 'progressives' hat zero in that category. Just 'coincidence' I'm sure.

 's picture


With that kind of math, the withdrawn are admissions of guilt - trying to game the system.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

Similar to what oBAMa's doing

Similar to what oBAMa's doing to the Constitution and other laws of the Land, right?
My take on the 'withdrawns' is that they did so out of frustration from getting screwed over by the Feral Govt.

MARK GRAVEL's picture

You don't know that.

You don't know that.


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