Welfare cheats: Maine ramps up battle against fraud

Russ Dillingham/Sun Journal

Christopher S. Frazer, left, of Lewiston appears in Androscoggin County Superior Court in Auburn recently for his arraignment on charges of welfare theft. Next to him is Katherine M. Pike of Waterford talking with her lawyer, Maurice Porter, after her arraignment on a welfare theft charge.

They claim to be pregnant for 40 months in a row.

Russ Dillingham/Sun Journal

Christopher S. Frazer, right, of Lewiston appeared in Androscoggin County Superior Court in Auburn recently for arraignment on charges of welfare theft, to which he pleaded not guilty. At left is his lawyer, Donald Hornblower.

They assume the identities of their dead fathers.

They say they're single when they're married.

They pretend to be caring for children when they're not.

They steal from the same state agency they work for.

They conspire and deceive.

These Maine welfare cheats are stealing public money. And they're going to jail.

.  .  .

Maine officials are stepping up efforts aimed at catching and convicting anyone who steals welfare money.

Department of Health and Human Service investigators are better trained. Local police are assisting on more cases. And state prosecutors are devoting more time and resources to putting behind bars people who rip off taxpayers' money.

The numbers tell the story.

Last year, Maine grand juries returned a dozen indictments charging welfare fraud, double the number in 2010. Already in 2012, charges have been lodged against eight defendants in the Lewiston area alone.

State prosecutors secured 10 convictions last year, up 25 percent from a year earlier.

Investigators at the Department of Health and Human Services tripled the number of cases they referred to the Maine Attorney General's Office over the same period.

Courts ordered nearly three times the amount of restitution be paid last year over the year before. The amount of money collected through court-ordered restitution nearly doubled last year.

Outside the courtroom, administrators last year recovered more than $2 million in overpayments to welfare recipients, also up from the previous year.

In 2010, DHHS fielded 1,200 reports of possible welfare fraud and abuse. In 2011, the number of reports nearly doubled to 2,100.

.  .  .

While the Maine Attorney General's Office investigates most crimes against the state, the Department of Health and Human Services is solely charged by law with investigating welfare fraud.

"Nobody was satisfied with the welfare fraud program a couple of years ago," Assistant Attorney General Peter Black said. Then-Attorney General Janet Mills made the issue a priority, he said. And with a change in administration a year ago, DHHS has followed suit.

"There's been a top-down change in focus from DHHS," said Assistant Attorney General Leanne Robbin, who until recently was Black's boss in the Financial Crimes Division at the AG's office. "I think it's fair to say there's been a culture change over there and I don't think it's because welfare fraud is increasing."

Attorney General William Schneider said the issue topped both his and Gov. Paul LePage's agendas.

"Almost immediately after I took office in January, we started meeting with the people over at DHHS to try to forge the contacts and the connections that we needed to get the cases from them, where they're investigated, to us, where they're prosecuted," Schneider said. "There seemed to have been a lack of enthusiasm for doing that kind of case in the past."

Welfare fraud occurs in two primary ways: individuals who get overpayments of benefits by lying on various welfare applications, and individuals who sell or trade their public assistance benefits. The state is going after both.

But while recent figures might suggest that the new spotlight on welfare fraud has remedied the problem, consider two more numbers: The total amount of money believed to be overpaid last year by the Maine Department of Health and Human Services was nearly $4 million, yet agency officials recovered just over $2 million, roughly half the total. The figures involve all types of overpayments, including agency error and intentional and unintentional erroneous application information by recipients.

While the total value of all fraud against Maine's welfare system isn't known, a spokeswoman at the Maine Equal Justice Project said most welfare recipients are people who truly need the assistance and don't abuse it. DHHS's own figures show that the portion of intentional fraud deemed provable enough for prosecution involves a small fraction of total welfare recipients. 

But DHHS officials acknowledge they're only aware of the fraud they catch.

"We don't obviously know all of the fraud that's occurring," said Dale Denno, a former assistant attorney general who was recently named director of the Office for Family Independence.

To detect more fraud, more troops are needed, officials say.

Last month, the agency's Fraud Investigation and Recovery Unit told state lawmakers it is "stretched for resources to meet the current number of incidents" of welfare fraud and abuse being reported. The personnel shortage limits the unit's ability to efficiently investigate reports of fraud and abuse and limits its ability to effectively collect debts owed to the state, according to a report by Maine's DHHS commissioner.

The Fraud Investigation and Recovery Unit has nine investigators, two fewer than in the 1990s, a DHHS spokesman said.

At the Attorney General's Office, veteran trial lawyer Black was hired away from a Portland law firm about two years ago to fill a dedicated role aimed at bringing to justice more of the criminals who abuse and defraud the welfare system.

.  .  .

Most state welfare assistance comes in two basic forms:

— The Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) — formerly food stamps, the benefit can only be redeemed for specific foods;

— Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) and Additional Support for People in Retraining and Education (ASPIRE) — two living assistance programs whose benefits can be withdrawn as cash at an ATM or debited at store checkouts in exchange for any product. (See related story.)

In both cases, the benefits a recipient receives from the programs are loaded monthly on a credit card-like "electronic benefit transfer" (EBT) card.

A month ago, an Androscoggin County grand jury handed up five indictments against four Lewiston men and a Waterford woman. They were charged with theft and other crimes stemming from an EBT card trafficking ring, according to court records. Two weeks later, four more people were charged in 8th District Court in Lewiston in connection with that ring.

Authorities say the defendants were trading EBT cards for cash and drugs. These cases marked a new push by the state to cast a broader net for welfare cheats, beyond the more familiar fraudulent practice of lying on applications.

"These Lewiston cases are a product of (DHHS) and the Attorney General's Office getting together and saying, 'OK, from a policy standpoint, where should we focus our resources?'" Black said. "And one of the things that the state feels is a concern is the trafficking in benefit cards. There's kind of an underground economy in trading these cards for cash and for other items."

Lewiston police Chief Michael Bussiere said that during routine pat-downs his patrol officers started finding EBT cards stuffed in suspects' pockets. In some cases, the suspects turned out to be drug dealers.

Local police started to work more closely with DHHS investigators and state prosecutors to gather evidence that could be used to successfully prosecute criminal cases.

Bussiere said his department started playing a greater role in welfare fraud investigations a couple of years ago and has roughly tripled the number of its welfare fraud cases on its books. That spike coincided with the economy hitting bottom, he said. The General Assistance office at City Hall was flagging many more cases of possible fraud and abuse and passing along tips, he said. Many tips are generated by legitimate benefits recipients ratting out friends or family members who are cheating the system.

"We've done a lot more cases because we're getting a lot more tips and information that's being brought in, and that's fine," Bussiere said. "We don't mind doing that. We don't mind helping out. Our concern is not just that people are stealing from the government, but that people are stealing taxpayer money and they're taking it away from people who really need it."

Diversion of money earmarked for welfare benefits also hurts the community in other ways, he said.

Not only do some people withdraw cash benefits loaded on their cards from TANF or ASPIRE to buy contraband, including illicit drugs, but drug dealers themselves might be collecting benefits because they have no declarable income, Bussiere said.

"If drug dealers can come up here and set up shop and not have to worry about daily costs because they're receiving (welfare) benefits on top of that, that's another issue altogether," he said. "If that's not fueling somebody's drug habit, that's making money off of other people's problems, while also doing it for free."

.  .  .

Maine's battle against welfare fraud includes more training and a change in agency culture that is sending a new message that fraud will not be tolerated, officials say.

Local police bring to their job investigative experience and training needed to build criminal cases against welfare cheats, Black said, but their counterparts at DHHS have traditionally lacked similar credentials.

No more.

Faculty from the Maine Criminal Justice Academy are providing greater training to DHHS investigators. Much of the curriculum in a recently launched program is a condensed version of what cadets at the academy would learn. Also, detectives at the Attorney General's Office have been meeting with DHHS investigators.

Also changing: a bureaucratic mentality that fraud isn't worth pursuing.

If referrals of "fishy answers" on applications that are forwarded to investigators appear to go nowhere, those frontline DHHS workers will be less inclined to take action when a red flag pops up on an application, said Assistant AG Robbin. "The culture within the agency tells the worker not to bother," she said. "They may look the other way."

But, Robbin said, "if you've got an agency that's saying, 'We don't want a single dollar to go out the door for fraud. We're going to give you support, we're going to try to get you support to be able to investigate'" that fishy answer, she said, the eligibility worker will be more motivated to blow the whistle. That's part of the current culture change.

A case involving an Andover woman who was forging letters from a school where she claimed to have been a student showed an obvious misspelling that wasn't immediately flagged. That misspelling should have tipped off the eligibility caseworker to the likelihood of forgery, Robbin said. Instead, the DHHS worker accepted the letter at face value and filed it. The deceit was only spotted later.

Robbin acknowledged that one challenge to spotting and reporting such deceit is the "very high" load handled by caseworkers. "It's hard for them to go beyond checking the boxes and the application and making sure that every section's been gone through."

Robbin added, "They're so time-pressed, they're saying, 'We've got the employer verification — check' and then they just move on. Maybe the manager's saying, 'Move it through. Move it through. Get out the benefits.'"

But if a piece of information causes a caseworker to do a double take, that worker should give it greater scrutiny, she said.

"If you've got something that bothers you, that concerns you, we should look into that further before shoveling the money out the door."

.  .  .

Most overpayments are handled by DHHS working with clients to recover the extra money paid to them. If a client lied on an application, that case might be referred to the Attorney General's Office for criminal prosecution.

"We've charged everything that they've sent over," Black said.

Prosecutions are not cheap, but Robbin said her agency is guided by no minimum threshold to bring a case to court.

"The collection part of this job is probably not going to make up for the costs of someone investigating fraud," she said.

Prosecutors pursue the "most egregious" cases, she said. They also highlight cases intended to deter copycats.

Case in point: A DHHS clerical worker secretly held onto returned EBT cards and withdrew money from their accounts. It was difficult to show exactly how much the worker stole, Robbin said, recalling the figure of $138.

"Obviously, you go after that one," she said, "mainly because you've got to send a message to staff: 'No!'"

She also recounted the case of two men who bought hundreds of dollars worth of water with SNAP benefits at a supermarket, then wheeled the shopping carts loaded with the jugs around the back of the store and emptied them so they could collect the deposit money on the jugs to buy booze and cigarettes, Robbin said.

"So that would fall under the definition of trafficking," Black said. "That would be something we would prosecute, (though) not a big-dollar item."

"It's not a dollars-and-cents question," Attorney General Schneider said. "I know we've increased our restitution collected. We've increased the number of cases we've brought and we've increased the dollar value of those cases. So we're increasing all three of those values. I honestly don't know whether that dollar for dollar offsets the cost of doing the prosecutions, but it's important to do the prosecutions, anyway, just to keep the system credible."

cwilliams@sunjournal.com

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Comments

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

If you want to talk about

If you want to talk about welfare fraud, what about all these free cell phones for people that are on welfare programs, that are being advertised on TV? Anyone ever stop to wonder who's paying for that?

free

Well i have one. I was paying almost 100 a month for my cell phone. But I don;t use the free phone because they are junk. The one I have doesn't charge and you only get 250 mins a month and if you don't call on the 10th every month they shut the phone off. I went back to my old cell but turned it into a go phone with a set amount every month. Still the free phone is good for emergencies. If nothing else.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

The fact that they're junk

The fact that they're junk doesn't surprise me. Wonder how long before someone at DHHS decides that everyone on benefits should be entitled to a free flat screen TV.

Tira Cottrell's picture

I have a suggestion

Along with most of the suggestions below, how about also giving everyone that applies a drug test? Then Random UA's when you are on assistance? I'm sure this could save lots of money too.

CLAIRE GAMACHE's picture

Just a thought

I'm glad they are investigating and prosecuting this fraud but since the problem seems to stem from the doubling and tripling of cases that DHHS workers have had to deal with because of lay-offs and hiring freezes wouldn't it be cheaper for them to have a manageable caseload so that they would have time to catch these things before they happen rather than spend money on year long investigations, court proceedings, and incarceration costs not to mention the money that was stolen?? It feels as if we are being robbed twice. I also would like to see more emphasis on restitution than jail. I know they have no money or assets but they can do community service. I want punishment but I also want the money back. Another cost nobody talks about is that these folks nearly always have kids. The life of the child of an incarcerated parent is no picnic. They usually end up neglected, abused and resentful. Not the way to encourage them to be better than their parents.

Heather M. Conley's picture

ok so lets throw them in jail

ok so lets throw them in jail and spend more tax money we dont have that makes sense....come on ppl make them work community service there is so many things that could be done in this state....make these people work off the money they frauded...why should the tax payers and the state waste anymore money on these lowlifes when we could make them work it off...they dont deserve us paying for 3 meals a day and a roof over there heads anymore.....

fraud

exactly. Then at least the single parents can collect child support. Make the users and abusers and losers work for minimum wage and give the money they make to the people they defrauded or owe money too. But then again the other side of the coin, if they're not making money where will they live? In a shelter? Who pays for that, We do! No matter what there are always pros and cons to every solution. But it would be a start.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

One step further, Heather,

One step further, Heather, make them work off the money they receive (at least the able ones)whether they've defrauded it or not.

DONALD FERLAND's picture

Paul...recipients are

Paul...recipients are required to participate in the ASPIRE program which requires them to get education, volunteer to get job training, or do a job search...they are required to participate 30 hours each week. It isn't FREE money as most assume. There are requirements that must be met in order to receive any assistance.

Scott Pare's picture

DHHS Jobs

I hope the people in charge of running DHHS for the last 10-20 years were fired for not doing their jobs. Instead, it seems like people want to get credit for now catching fraud. Why were these people not doing their jobs correctly before? Years and Years of continued fraud, stories spread around about abuses, EVERYONE knew there was fraud in the system. This is just ridiculous.

Brenda Porter's picture

welfare cheats

Obviously the people doing the applications need to pay more attention to detail, not just push through the application. Do you get a bonus if you get the most applications in one day? Come on...take pride in your job, if you're helping someone kudos to you but if you're just "processing an application" think of it as flushing YOUR paycheck down the toilet-you might think twice. Stop wasting hard working Mainer's money and catch these guys before you hand out millions.

ebt

Well what about when the honest individual trying to support their child the best they can. when they get a new job and report changes within the 10 days like they are supposed to. Then they keep getting the same benefit amount because they didn't realize anything because DHHs was supposed to know what they are doing. Then that person gets a letter saying that because we(DHHS) didn't act in a timely manner, you were overpaid and we are keeping your cash benefits and taking 40 a month off of your food stamps. So This individual who did nothing wrong and is complying with the system, and who is supposed to be receiving child cupport ona regualr basis but isn't, gets penalized for something that person didn't do. So that when they file thier state taxes DHHS takes thier money? What part of wrong does that fall under? Why should the ones that are on the program and doing their best to get off pay for DHHS mistake? Why don't they go after the noncustodial parent who isn't paying support yet has a job and buys a new car or whatever. In fact that person got a letter form the state agency where the non custodial father lives saying he never showed up for court and now has a writ of body attachment. Whatever that means. There are a lot of somalian refugee's that have store they got on welfare money. There was one buying a whole bunch of 5 pound bags of sugar. Thought she was going to do some baking but she was buying them to resell at her store. Sad part is she bought them with foodstamps. Imagine that. Do you think they get in trouble for that. yea right. They get everything handed to them because they are refugee's. I pay my own rent and bills, all I get from the state is foodstamps and maine care and some heating assistance. 105.00 every three months. That isn't even 50 gallons. That might last 2 weeks. By the time i pay my rent, bills, buy houshold items, and clothes for my daughter i have nothing left for gas for my car, or to even fix it. God forbid I have to pay a cab to go grocery shopping. If I didn't get foodstamps I wouldn't have food for my daughter. I'd have to go to the foodbank and I think that should be in place for those who have absolutely nothing. I have a roof over my head and a job. So in other words DHHS is as much at fault as the ones who defraud welfare. Pregnant for 40 months? Where is the prenancy test from the Dr's office confirming that. Oh wait they don;t even check that. That is a document that can be forged really easy. DHHs should be required to call the Dr. to confirm it. It's usually the same ones who abuse the system anyway. this definitely has to be reformed. If you take a look most of the somalians all have new or newer cars, or minivans, the latest cell phone, clothes etc... But then we the working folk don't have the money to buy a car, or to repair the one they do have yet it seems I see more somalians running cab companies, opening businesses etc. When is that going to stop and let us all be equal. I pay taxes like everyone else, I work for a living and I go to school.

Mike Lachance's picture

Wow. Thank you thank you

Wow. Thank you thank you thank youy Cathy. Youve just spoken for the silent majority in Lewiston. And no, you are niether rascist nor bigoted. I myself was wondering about the entire city block of halal stores on Lisbon St. (yes, its now one entire contiguous city block on one side of the street)... Where did the money come from for all those stores???

And you, who are legitimately utilizing the DHHS programs you legitimately qualify for, and WORKING, only recieve a mere $420 a year. (and have to put up with all the "DHHS Error" penalties and punishments. Iv've been a similar victim to Maine Unemployment "errors" a number of years back. Really torqued me.

Yes... these are all problems and they ALL ned to be addressed. But no one dares question welfare recipients "of color" for fear of starting some sort of yankee race war. Ah well... perhaps the investigations will be color blind and these problems will be looked into....

(are you holding your breath?)

ebt

I work with a few somalians and some are always bragging about thier business, or my phone. arghhh shut up already. I have a jeep with front end problems, a cable bill thats over due and an elec bill that's due. I've had people tell me to drop cable and save some money, that's all fine but I'm taking online college courses and can't just dump cable. They think that I can just drop school and pick it up once my finances get better, but what they don't realize is it still costs me money to drop classes, then I have to re- apply for student aid and then they look into why I dropped in the first place and become reluctant to approve me again. That's just like in the summer, I took my daughter to the pool in kennedy park and there are rules. There were two or three somalian kids that were oblivious to the rules and the lifeguards had to throw them out of the pool. Well the parents of the kids went ballistic and tried to say it was racist. Well they come over here then they expect everything to be handed to them. I drive school buses and I have to deal with somalian children. For the most part they are ok. You have those that don't care, they hit each other spit, steal whatever but when you single them out you get blamed for being biased. There are rules and the people that were here first US The native's can't get the same treatment anymore. Most of the jobs are gone to somalians. Look at walmart. They can't even speak english. They need to follow our rules, learn our language and get the same priveliges not be treated like they are above the law. That is the reason most of us "honest" struggling citizens are upset. This is only heresey but I hear they get up to 3000.00 a month! I could be wrong but if I got that I could see why i had no worries. There are many problems here not just with the refugees, and dhhs but that's for another place and time. I think DHHS should be held accountable when they make a mistake and make someone else pay for it. I get 282.00 a month for foodstamps. which when you think of it doesn't go very far. My dad used to spend 200 a week. I think as far as cash benefits go if you are eligible to work after so much time you should be taken off the system. I only get food stamps and maine care. Heating assistance is only during the winter. I only make about 200 per week because I only work 20 hrs a week. That's only when school is in session. I don't make money in the summer unless I get unemployment or find a part time summer job that lets me pay my bills and be able to afford day care for my daughter. So to you silent citizens don;t be afriad to speak up. What are they going to do, lock you up?

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

AARGHH!!!, indeed, Cathy.

AARGHH!!!, indeed, Cathy. Well stated.

 's picture

what institution of higher

what institution of higher learning awards you credits for watching TV?

DONALD FERLAND's picture

Dan, cable internet is

Dan, cable internet is actually more efficient then internet through the phone....and you don't have to have a phone line to do it....geesh use your head...you obviously have internet....

ebt

It's called cable internet. I can't use dial up because it takes too ling to submit my assignments. I don't have a home phone.

oops spelling error. Should

oops spelling error. Should say too long.

Dan Moody's picture

taxpayers

How funny that the taxpayers have put up with this for 25 years plus and it's still going on . And one other thing is you do not have to be a U.S. citizen to get welfare. Let's go back when you got Army surplus food .

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

They should do away with the

They should do away with the EBT Card system. Maybe if people had to stand in line and dole out the stamps (like the old system) at checkout while other people watched, it might be a deterent to fraud or getting on the program altogether. Giving people a welfare credit card is absolutely ludicrous and exemplifies liberalism gone amuck. People on welfare are not like people who aren't on welfare; they shouldn't be allowed to play "pretend", so they appear to be like everyone else, because they are NOT.

Chris Fuller's picture

I'm like everyone else

I respectfully disagree with your comment. People on Welfare are, in fact, just like everybody else. Those folks have names, faces, thoughts, and feelings.
I have been receiving benefits for many years due to an illness beyond my control. I truly don't think I'm any different from anybody else you might meet on the street. I'm an honest, decent person, just like the majority of folks who receive benefits to help them make ends meet.
I would also disagree with your statement that infers public humiliation might prevent people from, "getting on the program altogether." As embarrassing as the old food coupons were, we honest recipients were led by hunger and the need to feed our families, no matter what.
A EBT card does not allow a person to make pretend, an EBT card is a discreet way to streamline the management of benefits and the purchase of necessities.

PAUL ST JEAN's picture

You're entitled to your

You're entitled to your opinion as I was free to express mine. No offense intended, although the fraud aspects of the matter do tend to add a volatility that probably shouldn't enter the mix. The stroke of my brush perhaps may have been a bit too broad. I apologize.

Steve Pond's picture

welfare fraud

About time, during the Baldacci Administration, " when in doubt, just hand it out" was the phrase commonly used by friends of mine who are employed at DHHS, determining welfare benefits eligibility qualifications. It was common knowledge among some recipients who knew how to work the system, that a simple phone call to the Governor's office was all it took to overturn a denial decision into a decision granting them benefits regardless if they were eligible or not. Finally, a administration who places a higher level of accountability in regards to where taxpayers money is going.

Isaac Libby's picture

now as i have mentioned it

now as i have mentioned it is long past time to fix the freebies. i deal in fuel assistance and the abuse is hard to imagine. there are many cases of fraud in this program and nothing gets done even if abuses are reported. damn it, its my and my fellow tax payers monies that are being given away in the "candy store". if you can afford waterfront properties, snowmobiles, boats, 4-wheelers, and other such toys i feel its time to get your priorities straight and heat your own houses, i heat mine.

Allisa Milliard's picture

when i lived in bangor, the

when i lived in bangor, the dhhs office had a line of snowmobiles behind it. so someone with a dibilitating back injury or someone who can't afford food/heat or someone who has no job has to drive their snowmobile to the dhhs office. welcome to all-paid-vacation land folks.

The Very Rev. Daniel Beegan 's picture

Heating Assistance

I know many people in Maine who could have used heating aid, but could not qualify despite having no toys. Why? They worked and made too much money.

Ike, who is an oil man in the River Valley, has seen it all and I agree with his point that people need to get their priorities straight. If you can pay for snow machines, four wheelers or other toys, sell them first and buy No. 2 heating oil. Then, if you qualify, apply for aid. Think of the widow woman or the widower who has their thermostat set at 60 because that's all they could afford.

DAVE GUDAS's picture

The convictions reported are

The convictions reported are abysmal.
10 convictions in 2011? Up a whopping 25% over the previous year(meaning 8 convictions for 2010)

According to the U.S. Census Bureau’s American Community Survey
Maine had one of the HIGHEST rates of households accepting public assistance in 2010 despite the fact that the State’s poverty rate was NOT among the highest. - This statement alone implies fraud abounds!

In 2010, Maine saw 28,213 households on public assistance, (5.2% of the state’s population). Given the numbers using the system, the abysmal conviction numbers are basically not even worth mentioning.

Please keep in mind that "Public Assistance" was defined by this survey as either TANF or General Assistance distributed at the municipal level. It DID NOT include SNAP or SSI!

Nick Adams's picture

I know of an example where a

I know of an example where a person was collecting Food Stamps and Maine care in 2010 for herself and her daughter. I reported that person to DHHS, and they shrugged it off like it was nothing. The thing I saw wrong with this, was the daughter had been staying and living with her Father the entire time, but they did nothing. Oh, and go figure that person manipulating the system is a crackhead! (That was told to DHHS too) and thankfully the father has SOLE CUSTODY of his kid.

KATHRYN PENDLETON's picture

Yep

Dan, I'm sure that folks at the Community Credit Union ATM at midnight were thinking just that.

 's picture

If the department wishes to

If the department wishes to collect another million dollars, all it has to do is attach all of Speaker Nutting's assets. He stole over that from the system and has not paid it back. THAT would be an example to everyone if he was prosecuted and force to pay everything back. But when you see such a powerful man getting away with it, it sure takes the impetus off of everyone else to do the right thing.

Bob Stone's picture

I Figured as Much...

Thanks for the insight.

 's picture

That's no 'insight' it is the

That's no 'insight' it is the party line, haven't you already heard it? I'm certain you and booby are great friends

Bob Stone's picture

Dan

No, Bob and I don't know each other but I admire him for certain accomplishments in his life. Your personal insults directed to people are really pathetic.

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