Letters

Truth as God revealed it

Debra Wagner

Letters |

Wednesday, October 14, 2009 at 1:01 am

There is a danger when a church moves into the public square. It's called getting called on the truth. Some members of the Episcopal Church cringe when Episcopal clergy publicly advocate for the redefinition of marriage, as will happen Oct. 15 in Portland when the gay bishop will speak.

The Episcopal Church doctrine, canons, prayer book and catechism say that marriage is exclusively between a man and a woman. Found on page 861 of the catechism of the Episcopal Church: Book of Common Prayer, "Holy Matrimony is Christian marriage, in which the woman and man enter into a lifelong union, make their vows before God and the Church and receive the grace and blessing of God to help them fulfill their vows."

The new leadership of the Episcopal Church is held captive by a well-financed, culturally cohesive group that calls for inclusiveness for everyone except those who believe in the teaching of the church.

Many Maine Episcopalians have walked away. According to the Episcopal Church's Web site, the Diocese of Maine has been in decline since 2003 when the gay bishop of New Hampshire was installed.

Yet there are many Maine Episcopalians who agree with the prayer book and scripture, and there are still some clergy in the pulpit who preach the church's teaching on marriage.

I will vote "yes" on Question 1 because it is the truth as God revealed it.

Debra A. Wagner, Lisbon Falls

More from Letters

R. Sabine: Judging the need and the truth 1

P. Mador: Remember their sacrifice

J. Grover: Religious state of Maine 1

R. Baskett: Council's decision promotes civic engagement 1

M. Jalbert: Taking earmarked money 2

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Displaying comments, from newest to oldest

verified

He was one of the

By Mark Wrenn, verified user — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 18:00

He was one of the greats.
______________________

"A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned to walk forward."
Franklin D. Roosevelt

Gay rights and abortion

By Robert61, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 14:08

Gay rights and abortion stances are the key reasons I lef the party to the right, they spent too much time on these and not enough time on fiscal responsibility. That being said, I'll vote yes to cancel out trons and then I'll make sure my wife votes yes as well, just to irritate her godfather.

As if there was ever a

By tron, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 16:01

As if there was ever a chance you'd vote no. And complaining about republicans not practicing fiscal responsibility, is like the pot calling the kettle black. How about all the increase spending from the Lewiston City Council during the last two years? Where was all the fiscal responsibility then? You're just like the rest of the right wing wackos, all talk no action.

Exactly what increase are

By Robert61, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 17:17

Exactly what increase are you talking about, there has been none. Lewistons property taxes are exactly where they were some 3 years ago...The day you start using facts the world will stop spinning.

Taxes may be the same,

By tron, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 17:58

Taxes may be the same, however spending has increase dramatically, with funds from the state and federal governments, some of which was slated for property tax RELIEF. ergo you have failed, dramatically. And you know that, but you keep blustering your way through with lies.

Excuse me? The city got less

By Robert61, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 22:22

Excuse me? The city got less from the state as did most communities, and if we're having less from the state and no increase in taxes, how exactly couyld we be spending more...see thats the problem with uneducated people - they have no clue and can't comprehend simple statements, and when exposed they turn a cheek and call you a liar.

Robert writes: "I'll make

By gdls1, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 14:39

Robert writes: "I'll make sure my wife votes yes as well, just to irritate her godfather."
Gee, Robert61, sounds like you've got the little woman right where you want her....doing what you tell her to do. Isn't that just what the bible teaches?
Vote NoOn 1!

LOL. The good news is that

By FC_Observer, unverified — Thu, 10/15/2009 - 16:41

LOL. The good news is that there is a curtain in that there voting booth and she can vote however she feels fit and he will never know.

I have no idea how my niece

By tron, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 15:15

I have no idea how my niece is going to vote, but I can assure you it will NOT be because bobby is telling her how to vote. My niece is a very intelligent, self assured independent woman who thinks for herself.

I read all the posts on

By nikita80, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 13:08

I read all the posts on here. Vote no if you want. I'm voting yes.

That's your right, and may

By tron, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 13:18

That's your right, and may God have mercy on your soul.

now why would you say

By Robert61, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 17:19

now why would you say something so stupid? Oh wait, its Danny we're talking about...25 years without working thinking the world owes him soemthing while never getting off his butt to earn anything....maybe God will bless her because she was able to make her own choice and my God beleives we should all do what is right in our heart.

I've always supported

By tron, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 18:12

I've always supported myself, bobby. I've never live off my wife like someone we both know. Yeah you may have finally gotten a job, but I remember all those years when Linda did all the work.

what? I worked full time

By Robert61, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 22:26

what? I worked full time when she was part time going to nursing school, I worked full time when she cut back to help raise our kids, and we've both worked fulltime since, plus I have taken a side business doing taxes and other opportunities. You've just crossed the line danny, you must really be upset about not being invited to the wedding and other family gatherings. Congratulations on making yourself persona non grata. As an RN there were two years where her income was slightly higher than mine, but other than that I have been and still am the breadwinner in this family. But I guess I should expect such lies from a man who has not worked and collected off the state for almost 25 years.

And on your niece's also?

By nikita80, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 15:57

And on your niece's also?

verified

"it is the truth as God

By Jonathan Albrecht, verified user — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 12:00

"it is the truth as God revealed it." The Bible "God's revealed word" is in fact a political document developed over the last 1800 years. Its been written and re-written. Its being re-written as we speak to remove "liberal" ideas like charity by conservatives. The Bible has no credibility much less truth.
LD 1020 protects religious marriage and says so quite explicitly. No church is required to change anything in their dogma. So even if marriage between one man and one woman was the revealed word of God that would not be a rational reason to vote yes on 1. On the assumption that Debra is rational (I know she believes in the supernatural, magic, suspending the laws of nature so that assumption may prove false), then this is not the reason Debra is voting yes on 1. I wonder what is?
Jon Albrecht Dixfield

Ms. Wagner seems to have

By cranky yankee, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 11:02

Ms. Wagner seems to have difficulty from separating the religious society from the civil society. This is a question of civil law and does NOT infringe on the teachings of her faith or any other faith. Further, Ms. Wagner seems to want to proclaim membership in the Episcopal church, which does permit the ordination of women, while preaching the tenets of the Anglican church, which does not. Methinks Veritas has hit the proverbial nail square on its head.

verified

Debra Wagner should know

By Ronald Riml, verified user — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 10:46

Debra Wagner should know better than to write such a letter to the Editor!

Scripture tells her not to teach, and that she has no authority over men. Thusly she is sinning in the Public Square.

"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.."

1 Timothy 2:12 (King James Version)

Or is she a "New" version of Christian? But only on 'her' terms?

------------------------------------------
When I was a young Sailor - I drank like a Sailor, fought like a Sailor, and screwed like a Sailor. Now that I am old and wise - I have a few scars, but many fond memories.

Gary Yes i do belive that

By crash694, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 10:19

Gary
Yes i do belive that marrage is a religious union. But if you belive in Christians union of marrage, Than Why if you they get devorce ( any couple) that you are no longer accepted in the so called Christians sociaty and look apon as being out of Christians and cannot re marry unless you get that enulled (spelling) don't you thing that is also total hipicratic, that the marrage did not happen under the Christians faith under an enulment. Just so you can re marry

I think the reason that

By Gary C, unverified — Thu, 10/15/2009 - 08:56

I think the reason that "Christian society" treats the divorced as outcasts is because they have forgotten the Biblical admonishments to forgive, to forgo judgment, to turn the other cheek, etc, and instead, take it upon themselves to do God's righteous work.
I think God can take care of himself, thank you very much, and we should mind our own households.
If two people love each other, and are willing to committ to each other for life, what business is it of ours who they marry?
Again, the only arguments against this concept stem from religous dogma, and unfounded fear.

I simply do not understand

By Gary C, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 09:59

I simply do not understand why anybody thinks they have the right or ability to tell another how to live. But, I do know that most of those willing to do so are Christians by self description.
Religious indoctrination is the only reason I have seen given by those opposed to same sex marriage. Again, mostly by those who define themselves as Christians. If you must believe in a myth, you should try to believe those parts of your favorite myth that tell you to mind your own business. Someone else may believe a different myth; our country was founded by people who believed that your myth and their myth are equivalent, and should be protected equally.
Marriage is, at its core, a religous expression of partnership for life. Shouldn't anyone willing to live up to that lofty ideal be allowed to legal sanctity? Most religous marriage ceremonies I have witnessed demand that the couple shall never break the union, yet divorce is at shockingly high levels, which would indicate that the religious end of it is not widely held to be all that important anyway.
Keep your religion to yourself, and let others mind their own. Life is hard and lonely; if someone can find a little bit of happiness, and is not paying for it with someone else's happiness, leave them to it. (That would be Christian.)

verified

Gary, First, no one is

By John Chick, verified user — Thu, 10/15/2009 - 15:59

Gary,

First, no one is telling any one how to live. We are simply saying that the government has no authority to redefine the deffinition of marriage. The sanctity of marriage and the true family model (husband, wife, children) are at the core of our Judeo-Christian values and the basis for society.

Secondly, Christianity is not a myth. There really was/is a person named Jesus who claimed to be the Christ, the Son of God. You may not believe that he was/is, but that does not change the facts concerning his life and ministry.

Thirdly, the family, as God intended it to be, is not only a Judeo-Christian value, but one that is found in cultures all over the world, regardless of religion.

No one is denying gay people Life, Liberty or the Pursuit of Happiness. You say Christians should keep their beliefs to themselves, well what about the rest of you who are cramming gay marriage down the throat of the religious community? It is an attack on our fundamental core values. It has nothing to do with religious indoctrination. Marriage has been, and still is, considered a unique relationship ordained by God for thousands of years, and not just in Judeo-Christian circles either.

John A. Chick

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Colonel Charles Yancey (January 6, 1816)

John; I appreciate your

By Gary C, unverified — Fri, 10/16/2009 - 09:20

John;
I appreciate your response and the fact that you are willing to discuss this without resorting to personal tirades.
However, I disagree. Our society may be a Judeo-Christian society, but there are others with core belief systems which are not Biblically based. Do they get no say in how their lives are managed by the government? According to most research, our country (and almost every country on Earth will be mostly Islamic in a few decades--check out the difference in birthrates and the math does itself.)
You are right, Christianity is NOT a myth. I know it exists, because I was raised as a Christian. It is likely that just about the only fact that we can verify is that Jesus existed. (There is mention of him in a non-Bilblical source from the time period.) His teachings are not fact, but hearsay written down some 30-40 years after the fact, then subject to the whims of those mutliple translations and deliberate changes throughout the next several hundred years (fact). Nothing else in the Bible is independantly verified, nor is it verifiable. Realistically, since the Bible tells us contradictory details on several aspects of Christ's birth, it only stands to reason that not each version is right, therefore some of it is wrong. Plus, there are several other dieties with life stories almost extactly duplicating Jesus's, and some of these are hundreds or thousands of years older thatn the Biblical writings. That is suspicous.
My point is that there are many other belief systems or religions with reasons just as compelling as Christianity. JudeoChristian does not mean the same as right, or truth.
Homosexuality is found in cultures all over the world, as is polygamy. Both are seen in nature. In societies without knowledge of Biblical values, people have been married for centuries. Marriage is not Biblical, and should not be subject to the whims of a few fanatics. Polls show that most Amercians don't really care one way or the other about marriage, but among those who consider themselves religious, it is a big problem. If religious people (Bible thumpers) are so dead set against Gay marriage, why are there so many divorces among the religious? Isn't failure to fulfill your vow to God that your marriage will last forever, forsaking all others etc., of any importance? Those with religous values cheat on their spouses, get divorced, lie, cheat and steal, but won't allow two people who love each other to get married?
I'm sorry, that hypocracy is too much to ignore.
I'll say it again: Let God take care of sinners, mind your own household. Live your life as you wish. Stay out of other people's business. Teach your children whatever sort of religious viewpoint you wish, but leave my wife, children, me and everybody else to live their lives as WE see fit. That is Christian.

Does this statement apply to

By jebbie47, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 12:32

Does this statement apply to others " I simply do not understand why anybody thinks they have the right or ability to tell another how to live. But, I do know that most of those willing to do so are Christians by self description."

Hmm I would say the liberal left has more voice in this than Christians , when Christians speak up some say separation church and sate, and others like you put their bit in and it's ok.

I'm sorry if I misunderstand

By Gary C, unverified — Thu, 10/15/2009 - 08:49

I'm sorry if I misunderstand your post, but do you really think that the liberal left is against same sex marriage and the Christian right is for same sex marriage? That is delusional at best.
There has been little separation of church and state ever since churches got involved in political discussions and began the practice of urging membership to vote this way or that way, to mobilize for or against any political cause. Any church that does this should be taxed.
BTW, my bit is simply to ask people to keep out of other people's personal business, and the Christian right has no interest in minding their own business. And yes it is OK. Tolerance and fairness never hurt hurt anyone.

Linda The way i red his, Rex

By crash694, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 09:46

Linda
The way i red his, Rex is that interation marrage , that possibly you felt that to was emoral. And belive that is why he use the bigot word.
I must say that there simular in nature, as in teaching as we were led to belive from our so call religious fathers. But it is not really any were in the writing that states. neither.
I for one will vote NO on 1 for reasons i strongly belive that people, any person who man (god) created, has a right to be with whome they chose to be with. as a partner in life and if they so choose to marry, that too should be. And for people that say a gay marrage breed gay children. your the one with the issues and need theropy. As i know of may gay couples that have children and there is nothing further from the truth. Think i have notice is that they are more family oriented than Us normal and we tend to take it for granted.

verified

My comment was directed at

By Linda Daigle, verified user — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 09:14

My comment was directed at Crash--I put the wrong name in-excuse me please--

verified

My comment was directed at

By Linda Daigle, verified user — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 09:14

My comment was directed at Crash--I put the wrong name in-excuse me please--

verified

Funny thing is Trayl, I

By Linda Daigle, verified user — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 09:05

Funny thing is Trayl, I didn't say anywhere whether I was in favor or not--I just commented that Rex spouts the bigot word and so many other hateful things in defense of gay marriage--I say it takes away from his cause--he only sounds hateful and determined to shove his opinions down peoples throats by name calling a bulling--sound familiar to you?? I bet it does--by the way, my brother, who I love is gay....................and he is welcome at my table and in my home whenever he wants, and he is the godfather to my child-I am hardly a bigot, as I said, you don't know where I stand.

verified

Funny thing is Trayl, I

By Linda Daigle, verified user — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 09:05

People like Rex make me want

By Scotty_O, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 08:36

People like Rex make me want to vote yes on 1, and then re-register with Acorn as Mickey Mouse and vote yes again. Way to drum up support for your cause, tough guy.

I will pray for your

By Traylblaze, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 08:19

I will pray for your enlightenment Debra! God is love, fairness and equality. Please vote No on 1!

verified

While you're at it, ask God

By John Chick, verified user — Thu, 10/15/2009 - 14:40

While you're at it, ask God for a little enlightenment for yourself. Nowhere in scripture does it say that God is about fairness and equality. (Although there is a passage that says God is no respecter of persons, i.e. God treats everyone the same whether they are rich, poor, black, white, etc.)

Jesus said ""I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Now really, is that fair? No. But the scriptures also teach that "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9.

John A. Chick

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Colonel Charles Yancey (January 6, 1816)

I have to agree with Rex on

By crash694, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 08:12

I have to agree with Rex on that. You are a narrow minded bigot. Take the blinders off. Problem with Shelby is that you think cause it is writen in the Bible all is true. a lot of the writing were omited by the Pope's cause they did not particullary like a certain person Like today. some things don't change, We are raise to belive one teaching and learning more of the teaching was was writen is not actually what happened. Good case in point Mary madelin. Look that up and see the truth.

God did not say in his writing that man and woman are the only family. Boy you need to take your blinders off. Or change your coffee brand

verified

I suggest you read the bible

By John Chick, verified user — Thu, 10/15/2009 - 13:26

I suggest you read the bible again. God most certainly ordained marriage (between a man and a woman).

You can start with Genesis chapter 2. Notice that God made Eve, not Steve for Adam. In verse 24 God says: "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."

When Jesus was asked about divorce, he said: 4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." - Matthew 19:4-6

Or in Hebrews (New Testament) where it says: "Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral." - Hebrews 13:4

I don't know where you get your information crash, but the Pope doesn't have a monopoly on the Bible. There are more supporting ancient manuscripts of the texts that make up what we call the Bible, than any other ancient documents. That has nothing to do with the stuff that the Popes make up or the new teachings they issue. That stuff is not part of the Bible.

John A. Chick

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Colonel Charles Yancey (January 6, 1816)

Anyone who doesn't agree

By jebbie47, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 12:34

Anyone who doesn't agree with your thoughts is a Bigot???, You Sir are a Bigot for not accepting her opinion.

I think the reason that so

By crash694, unverified — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 08:03

I think the reason that so may have chalange it, that the churches have not been telling us all the truth fo so many years. There teaching have been totaly one sided and bigotry. But if you look at the history of the bible and teaching. The so called christian were the ones that decited what was in or out of the bible. For years we all belived or led to belive in one way of the teachings. But in reality once we get older and discover more of life, history and teaching, you fine that what was taught is not exactly what happened. Case in point. Take a look ate your kids history book, and go back and see if you remembery any of what they say happened.
Now when you say same sex is not normal, etc. well defind normal. it not a deseace that they cauget or that you can catch. Its been sicentyfly proven that we are born with that jean. It only develop with in us as we grow older. And for some know it at an earlery age. So when a gay/lesbien person come out, so to speak, it also harder for them to, cause of our phobia of the fact we have all be indoctraned that (that word again) normal is supose to be a man and woman, and not woman and woman, or man and man. People you need to get over this, people have a right to be themself, no matter what there orientation is. This to is normal,(that word again) We all need to accepet them as people, as they are, no different then you and I. You may also have a friend, family member that is, and because of your phyobia can't see beyond your nose that this person is a great friend, family mamber and would do anything for you. Only if you can accept them for what they are. people like you and me.

verified

Actually crash, You are

By John Chick, verified user — Thu, 10/15/2009 - 13:03

Actually crash,

You are partially correct. The "Old Testament" of the Christian bible is the same as the Hebrew texts which were compiled by the Jews long before Christ walked on this earth. The New Testament is a collection of biographies and letters written by those who had been with Christ and various other eye witness accounts. Before they were compiled into what we call the New Testament, they were copied and passed around to the individual churches. I don't understand why it was a problem to compile them into what we know today as the Bible. We do the same thing with secular writings (i.e. The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, which is a compilation of individual stories that were published in "The Strand".)

And as for your other issue, no, it has NOT been scientifically proven that there is a Gay gene. That is mere speculation and wishful thinking amoung those in the Gay community. There is nothing normal about same sex relationships. You don't need a Bible to tell you that, look at the way our bodies are designed (or evolved, if you prefer to think of it that way).

Let us, for a moment, throw God, the Bible and religion right out of the argument and look at this based on the theory of evolution, natural selection and the survival of the fittest. The theory is that over time, life evolves and in the evolution process, traits considered to be improvements are naturally selected over those which are not. That the stronger of the species survive to pass on their genes, ensuring the survival of a particular species. If this is true, and a large percentage of scientists believe that it is, then a homosexual gene (if there was one) would serve no purpose in the evolutionary scheme of things. It does not make the species stronger nor does it ensure the survival of the species. If we were all homosexual, there would be no more offspring. So even if there was a Gay gene, which there is no proof of, it would be a mutation or trait that serves no useful purpose in the survival of the species, and thus it would be an abnormality. (i.e. it ain't normal).

Any way you look at it, biblically or scientifically, homosexuality is a destructive lifestyle.

John A. Chick

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Colonel Charles Yancey (January 6, 1816)

verified

Rex, A--you are a creeper, I

By Linda Daigle, verified user — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 06:17

Rex, A--you are a creeper, I read the garbage you wrote in regards to St. Josephs church closing, and other horrible, negative things in the past, and now "Don't you Dare............." you the bigot and I won't even call you sir. You seem to me to be a wicked, miserable person who gets off on being able to say what you want (your soul must be black to have such a negative outlook on life and the people who live it) but yet you are a coward because you won't let anyone else have a word in....you shut them down and go to the next news article to harass others. You are the intolerable one!!!

verified

Rex, time for a mirror.

By Ray St. Onge, verified user — Wed, 10/14/2009 - 05:54

Rex, time for a mirror. Definition of bigot: –noun
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

verified

Rex, The basic definition of

By John Chick, verified user — Thu, 10/15/2009 - 10:54

Rex,

The basic definition of a bigot is "a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own". So in a sense, you are also a bigot. You are prejudice towards anyone who believes the Bible and are intolerant of their opinions because they differ from your own. Oh, and FYI, when someone speaks out about, or shares their faith, they are adhering to the teachings of Christ found in the Bible.

John A. Chick

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Colonel Charles Yancey (January 6, 1816)

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