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Let's keep it civil

Published on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 at 12:12 am | Last updated on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 at 12:12 am 19 Comments

It seems to me that many people miss the point on Question 1, arguing what God wants, what the Bible says, etc.

The fact is, states regulate marriage, not churches, and marriage is subject to the laws of states that pass them.

Maine's marriage equality law is clear: If a church doesn't want to perform a gay marriage, it doesn't have to. In this nation, church and state are separate, and while all are free to worship as they please, society is shaped according to rules of law, not rules of religion.

That's not to say God's "laws" are irrelevant; people live by them daily, regulating their lives by them. But it does mean not all people have to follow or accept the same religious precepts.

It's a principle of this nation that as long as people live within the law, they are free to think as they wish; and all are entitled to the same rights and protections as everyone else. If equality means anything, it means we can't deny to some what we grant to others.

That idea has kept the nation free from tyranny, either of dictators or of mobs, and people should think hard before denying others rights we so carefully guard for ourselves.

Laws aren't about sin; they're not meant to propagate religious ideas. Laws are about what free and reasonable citizens agree will produce the fairest equality for all people.

Richard Matthews, Phillips

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Displaying comments, from newest to oldest

cderaps's picture

Richard, I would like to

Richard, I would like to thank you for reminding me of something that put still more perspective on the church aspect of this question. Yet another reaon really to vote no as this further blows the arguement of churches being forced to perform marriages out of the consideration.

I have a niece who settled in the Portland area near her parents after college. She rather takes after her mother in matters om employment and society. To put it delicately, she is what we refer to as a "social climber." Everything in her life, from her extra curricula activities in high schoo and college, her "friends", the college she attended, her career choice have all been with one goal in mind, climbing the slocial ladder at whatever cost. Her first husband (relationships are disposable even the father of your children and your children are there only to propel you uip the ladder) was a very nice man from a well respected family in the community.He had the right name and sufficiant family money and standing to get her moving ing the right direction and so she latched on to him. She also secured a series of progrssively more prestigious positions in a varoty of Portland area firms. Unless you are familiar with Portland "society" you are not aware of the "religious hiararchy" in that society. I don't know how it is now, but 20 years ago the place to be was Woodfords Corner Congregational Church. This was, probably still is, a massive facility of the most ornate variety that would put many Catholic Cathedrals to shame. now my niece was not the church going type as it was definitely in conflict with her social climbing bent and the young man was otherwise affiliated. My niece, however, viewed her upcoming nuptuals not so much as the joyous union that she should have but as a perfect opportunity to put the spotlight clearly upon herself in all social aspects and at the same time benefit greatly her career, her material possessions and her purse. The best way to achiev this was an extavaganza at Woodfords Corner Congrgatioanl Church, wherein lie her problem. The clergy of that fine institution will not marry you and you can not use the facilities unless you are a member of atleast one year. You do this by formally joining the church and dropping a donation envelop into the collection plate for 52 weeks. Then and only then will there be any consideration to you being wed by the clergy there or in that facility. And that is exactly what she and he did and one year later they were able to get approval to marry in a way that satisfied her "social" needs. My point is that churches and individual religious already decline to marry couples for a variety of reasons, some as base as not having forked over 10% of income for the previous year, allowing the current equity of marriage law to stand will notc change a thing. Thanks again Richard for the memory.

Old Bill's picture

Sounds to me as if the real

Sounds to me as if the real "point" here is the piss-poor upbrining you niece had...
"The democracy will cease to exist when the government takes from those who would work and gives to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson.

momof4's picture

Folks other than Catholics

Folks other than Catholics disagree with gay marriage also. And I would also like to hear triumphs list of "lost rights"... you can't lose something you never had to begin with.

Gil's picture

Triumph, I have to throw the

Triumph, I have to throw the BS flag on your statement. What rights has the Catholic Church taken away from Maine families?
"Liberals love America like O.J. loved Nicole." Ann Coulter

veritas's picture
verified

Are they still doing the

Are they still doing the "Mortal Sin" thing on birth control? The Catholic Church controlled by the use of fear for so long. Selling indulgences was such a sweet racket, too - until Luther called them on it, and the German Princes tired of seeing all that gold wend its way to Rome.

Seems folks have regained their rights by not buying into it. Hence the closing of the Churches. They've voted with both their feet and pocket-books.

-----------------------------------------
When I was a young Sailor - I drank like a Sailor, fought like a Sailor, and screwed like a Sailor. Now that I am old and wise - I have a few scars, but many fond memories.

Gil's picture

Still no rights taken.

Still no rights taken. Nothing you mentioned has anything to do with rights. Not even close.
"Liberals love America like O.J. loved Nicole." Ann Coulter

veritas's picture
verified

I knew you wouldn't answer

I knew you wouldn't answer the question.

------------------------------------------
When I was a young Sailor - I drank like a Sailor, fought like a Sailor, and screwed like a Sailor. Now that I am old and wise - I have a few scars, but many fond memories.

Gil's picture

What question Morus? I

What question Morus? I originally posted a question that has yet o be answered. What rights has the church taken? Birth control and the church? What does that have to do with rights supposedly taken by the church? Indulgences? Something that happened between the 10th and 16th century? Is that how far back you have to go? How sad, and how truly appropriate my new quote, thanks Pirate.
"Reasoning with a liberal is like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end. " Pirate

tron's picture
verified

Just because you say does

Just because you say does not make it true. Actually, with your track record it you say it, it's a lie.

Gil's picture

Enough Dan, you have accused

Enough Dan, you have accused me of being a liar for the last time. You have no evidence of me lying on here ever. If you do, I challenge you to produce it. If you don't, then apologize, retract it, and shut the hell up. Or we can do this face to face - your choice little man, put up or shut up.
"Reasoning with a liberal is like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end. " Pirate

tron's picture
verified

You frequently state that

You frequently state that non breeders have equal rights as breeders, yet you know that gays do NOT have the right of marriage with the accompanying rights and privileges that non gays do. Now you'll counter that they have the same right, but that, of course, is the start of your lying binge. You, sir, will not bully me into silence. Surprising, perhaps, but I know my rights.

Gil's picture

Marriage is not a right,

Marriage is not a right, Dan. Breeders, nice term. I suppose if you are a pathetic little man child who lives alone in a sad little apartment with the shades drawn because he is afraid of the world outside you have to find a term for those you loath. Gays have every right afforded to heterosexuals, not a lie. Not even a nice try. Again, man up or shut up.
"Reasoning with a liberal is like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end. " Pirate

tron's picture
verified

Just look to the 14th

Just look to the 14th Amendment to the Consititution and even you would have to declare I'm right and you are so miserably wrong, as usual. Marriage is a priviledge that should not be denied simply on the basis of sex.

Robert61's picture

tron name on RIGHT gays dont

tron name on RIGHT gays dont have. Most of the hate in these columns seems to come from those who will vote NO to keep the law on the books, and that starts with you.

tron's picture
verified

bobby, I'm going to have to

bobby, I'm going to have to start insisting that you write in English, so that I can totally understand your rants. As far as hate goes, the Yes on 1 has a monopoly on it, by their insistence on denying gay people a basic human right. You, on the other hand, just do things to be mean spirited. That's the definition of hate.

Robert61's picture

SO, in other words, you're

SO, in other words, you're not able to come up with one single RIGHT that gay couples do not have, so you'll attack my spelling? As to hate, your continued writings where you call all those opposed to your view "bigots" is the most hateful thing anyone has read on this blog. Suck it up and be a man, admit you were wrong for just one, it will do you good. 14th amendment is so funny to bring u here, its not even relevent and shows who you listen to on talk radio....

tron's picture
verified

"No State shall make or

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. " So you see, bobby, what you are proposing is a complete violation of the 14th amendment. You don't agree, but so what. It is what it is. And if I call a bigot a bigot, how is that hateful? Libel laws exist, and truth is the best defense.

triumph's picture

The Question now, Mr.

The Question now, Mr. Matthews: "Is Maine a state with liberty and justice for all or just those the Catholic church approves of?" The CC will close 9 churches and schools in Maine this year due to lack of money. The Maine Diocese has spent over a half million dollars trying to take away the rights of a few thousand families. That is none of my business, and law is none of theirs, but Catholics? There is where your money is going.

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