What terrible thing has the church done?

Ares says

Ooo, that stings...

Sammie, same sex marriage is not a question of religion it is a question of law. Religion has no place in law or government and contrary to your claim that the "USA was founded on Christian principles", Christianity was more often rejected as a building block for our Country. This is not to say that Christianity had not place to the contrary it played a vital role in the earliest settlement of this Country but not in the founding of what we now call The United States of America. History is the key to this argument not religion. You continue to talk about the laws of Christianity which are far removed and were intended to be far removed from the government and laws of this Country.

Here are some pretty indisputed facts...the Declaration of Independence does not once mention or reference Jesus Christ nor Christianity.

"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation".

The reference to "of nature's God entitle them" is generally accepted by scholars to be a Deist point of view not a Christian point of view.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed".

Again, generally the reference to "their Creator" is accepted as a Deist reference and not a Christian reference.

The lack of any reference to Christianity and religion of any kind leads me to believe that the founding farthers intended and believed that Christianity and religion as a whole had no place in government. I don't belive the founding fathers intended to exclude religion from our Country just from our law making decisions.

The Constitution of the United States also makes no reference to Christianity or God. The word God or Jesus or Creator show up nowhere in the Constituion. You would think a nation built on "Christian principles" would have featured religion in the two most important texts relating to it's creation, existance and sustaining laws. But, neither do. The constitution seems to spell out that religion has no business in government or law except that government stay out or religion and religion stay out of government. Here from the Constitution of The United States of America

Article 6
"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States".

I take this to mean that religion, Christian or otherwise has no place in determining who leads the Country and as an extension no religious moral value shall be used to determine the government.

Some supporty materials regarding the attitudes of religion in the formation out the US of A.

Are you familiar with The Treaty of Peace and Friendship ratified by the United States Congress and singed into law in 1797 by the second President of the United States John Adams contains these words in article 11 of the Treaty.

ARTICLE 11.
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries".

Here is a quote from James Madison 4th president of the US of A, father of the Constitution and slave owner.
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

Here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson 3rd president of the US of A and slave owner
"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth."

Thomas Paine-Patriot
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

Let's not pretend that our founding father's were church going Christians that walked in the shadow of God. They were slave owners, they were philanderers, they were law breakers, they were theives but above all and most important they were human beings. Full of hypocrisy, idealism, faults, love and the whole range human emotion and beliefs.

Thomas Jefferson-author of the Declaration of Independence. Though raised in and Episcopalian/Anglican household most experts agree he was a Deist and there is evidence that he may have actually been an atheist. The D of I mentions the word God one time and it is generally accepted that the mention reflects a Deist point of view. I tend to believe that Jefferson was a free thinker free from the bondage of any religion Christian or otherwise. He adopted the very Christian principle of owning over 150 slaves.

George Washington was a member of the Episcopal church though he was not a dedicated member of the church. It is believed that he never took communion so he was not considered a full fledged adult member of the church. It is generally accepted that Washington was a Deist and has been pegged in many circles as a non-Christian. Also a slave owner.

John Adams-Unitarian and most often described as a liberal Unitarian, not exaclty a heavy Christian adherance going on here. There may be more non-christians identying themselves as Unitarians than Christians.

Benjamin Franklin-grew up Episcopalian but as an adult identified as a Deist.

James Madison-Episcopalian on paper Deist in practice.

The reality is that nearly 50 percent of our founding fathers were Episcopalian on paper but were Deists in practice. As a scholar of Christiantiy you surely know that Deists are Desits because the found themselves wanting to belive in a single God, refuse the idea of the trinity and could not and can not accept, belive or follow what they belive to be the absurdity in much of the Christian doctrine and Church. Though both belive in God. Christianity is based on the worshiping Jesus Christ. Deists worship God and god alone.

Your assertion that the Roman Empire tried to stamp out Christianity is missing the part where they adopt Christianty as the official religion. There were certainly those who were not fans of Christianity. Christianity went through a few hundred years of being tolerated, persecuted and favored by various Roman governments. And 300 years after the crucifiction of Christ it is the Roman Empire that adopts Christianity as it's official religion creating an atmosphere of worldwide (of the known world at the time) reinforcement and growth.

Your comment regarding "cherry picking" is amusing because the cherry picking is exactly what opponents of same sex marriage do regularly and I agree, so do those who favor same sex marriage.

There are facts that can not be disputed. Christianity in this country is in decline. Why? Is it because the old die and are not replaced by the young as is necessary to grow any organization or is it that Christians are leaving the faith? I don't know. I tend to believe it is a bit of both. The inability of the church to recruit new members due to it's many exclusionary practices, that also drive the faithful towards other practices or away from religion completely.

The truth is the bible can be quoted from now untilt the end of time it doesn't make it true. Christianty is a religion and by definition a religion is a belief, not a fact. From the oldest organized religion, Hindu, to a newer religions like Christianity or Islam the foundations lie in the belief in something unseen, something super natural, something believed to exist.

What I believe is, I do not have the right to tell another consenting adult that they are not entilted to love another consenting adult of the same sex and to have that love recognized as equal to that of the love of a woman who loves a man. If god exists as he is described then to the best of my knowledge it is up to god to cast judgement, not me, nor you, nor any other living being.

devoutmainecatholic says

Arse said - "Why do Catholics continue to think that they have the right or responsibility to tell anyone anywhere who to love or how to live?"

Because we love you. Because we don't want anyone to live a self-destructive lifestyle. Because we want you to be happy. Because we believe in heaven and we want you to go there too.

Although your distain for the bible and the Catholic Church is evident in your post, perhaps you could see through your anger and realize that because the Church believes as she does, she will tell you what she thinks is best for you. Is anyone else different who truly loves someone? Does a mother who loves her child say "go ahead and play in the street. It's your choice, I want to be inclusive." Does a man who cares for his buddy say "go ahead and drink and drive. I respect your choices." Do we teach our kids in school that smoking is the same as breathing fresh air? Do we tell them to take drugs if they are "oriented" to them? No we don't. and it's because we love them.

Even if you reject what the Church believes, you should respect the fact that the Church's motivation, as well as the motivation of all authentic Christians, is wanting what she believes is best for individuals as well as society. She is motivated by authentic love. The proof is how she is willing to be attacked and persecuted for those beliefs rather than become "inclusive" as you put it and focus her efforts on being liked. In this she followes the example of Jesus, who was crucified for speaking the truth.

gdls1 says

Ah, an intelligent, thoughtful and welcomed post. Thank you.

Ray1964 says

I went to the website "beyondmarriage.org" and read the document you suggested. I thought it proposed some good ideas.