Saturday, November 21, 2009 in Lewiston, Maine

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Adjust traditions

This is in response to Ruth Oakley (Oct. 28) and others who use "natural law" as an argument against same-sex marriage.

Let's not forget that natural law is the same argument that was used to condone slavery and prohibit interracial marriage. It is the same argument that pushes an unhealthy "separate but equal" stance. In the nation's not-so-distant past, separate but equal ideology produced separate water fountains for whites and for blacks.

These examples that have used the natural law argument contradict the teachings of Jesus. Let's learn from history and not repeat that unhealthy pattern.

Given his living example of how to conduct ourselves before God, Jesus taught people that traditions must be adjusted when they do not hold others in equality. The Gospels are clear on that message.

The tradition of civil marriage should be adjusted in a way that provides equal rights for all.

Elizabeth Henry, Auburn


Comments

concerned KD says

So apperently because the term " Natural Law" was used by evil regimes and sepremicists completely out of the context of its true meaning to sway the followers into further believing the verbal vomit spewed from the mouths of the leaders of such causes noone can PROPERLY use the term to describe a man and a woman being REQUIRED to concieve a child. The ONLY way "natural law" was used in the previous blogs was to explain this point... If Elizabeth disputes this fact of conception then she is in for more than she bargained for and Im sure will be in for some surprises. Her equations are way off base here. Though there may be some bigots out there voting yes on 1 for they're own reasons, the VAST majority of mainers are not bigots and are very tolerant of any lifestyle that doesnt fit into the social norms of society....However if one group of people is asking for the government to legaly stomp on the constitutional rights of a religious group then that is as wrong as not allowing gays and lesbians to wed at all.. Yes on 1 voters have already stated that CIVIL UNIONS are completly fine in the eyes of the church and that Gays/Lesbians should have all the same benefits and rights that traditional married couples(man and woman) have but should not be allowed to legaly term it as marriage due to the legal and religious defenition of the word.. This shows the willingness to be accepting of the lifestyle that does not agree with they're belief system and Im sure many churches across the state welcome the gay/lesbian community into they're place of worship with open arms... but now you are asking them to compromise/change they're beliefs to suit your lifestyle and this my friends is no better than the church telling you to be straight.. You are asking them to change they're beliefs to appease you and that is wrong .... If the gay and lesbian community( or at least the no on 1 community) were willing to sit at the table and compromise then we would all be better off... from where I sit it looks like most voter supporting yes on 1 and the church have already shown they are willing , so I ask to the gay and lesbian(no on 1) community are you willing?

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

jchick's picture

jchick says

Well said.

If this were really just about rights (which it is not) or bennefits and privileges (which it is) then it could easily be settled in a manner in which all bennefit. The truth is, this is more than just about equality. This is an attack on the church, marriage and the "natural" family. If it were anything else, they would be willing to compromise. This law only applies to LGBT's. It does nothing to secure equality for non-married heterosexual couples or single parents. It's a bad law that needs to be repealed.

John A. Chick

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Colonel Charles Yancey (January 6, 1816)

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Joseph's picture

Joseph says

No, I for one am not willing to compromise on basic civil rights. Why should anyone?

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

jchick's picture

jchick says

Joseph, obviously, you didn't read what he wrote. No one is asking anyone to compromise on basic civil rights. The compromise is on the definition of marriage.

John A. Chick

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Colonel Charles Yancey (January 6, 1816)

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

jalbrecht1 says

Natural law is simply ignorance and superstition institutionalized. Its an attempt to "secularize" the bible. Doesn't work. Marriage is a purely secular contracted created by government to organize marriage. The bible does not apply. And if it did its been re-written so often no one knows what it means. The bible is not authoritative.
Jon Albrecht Dixfield

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

northwoods says

Jon
The bible does apply when you are talking about the law. Although there is a seperation of church and state which basically means the church itself can't control the government. However in regards to law the church and bible have a great influence. See laws are made from the moral and ethical code of its people. So the bible and the church will influence the law as long a majority of the people that moral and ethical code.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

jchick's picture

jchick says

Please read it again. The first Amendment protects The People (religious or otherwise) from the government establishing a "State" religion. It does NOT prevent religious people from participating in government. There is a big difference. If by "the church" you mean the Roman Catholic Church, or any other organized religion, then that is correct. There is no provision in the Constitution that allows any organized religious body to dictate government policy.

I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your statement. What people believe, i.e. their core values, will influence the laws they choose to be governed by. Our nation, as a people, have a rich Judeo-Christian religious heritage, and as a result, 99.9% of our laws are derived from principles found in the "10 Comandments". It's only been the last 40 years or so that we, as a society, have drifted away from that heratige.

John A. Chick

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Colonel Charles Yancey (January 6, 1816)

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

jalbrecht1 says

"In 1999, Bill Clinton signed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, a bank deregulation bill that swept away a Depression-era law known as Glass-Steagall." This is classic Republican propaganda. Bill Clinton never signed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. Clinton signed an appropriations bill to which Gramm had added his act as a rider in conference committee. The appropriations bill had to be signed. Clinton did not have a line item veto so he could not remove GLB. GLB was a purely Republican bill bought and paid for by the banking industry and opposed by democrats everywhere.
Jon Albrecht Dixfield

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

jchick's picture

jchick says

So the statement is true. Clinton signed it. It's not propaganda, it is a factual statement. BOTH political parties are adept at "tacking on" riders and amendments in order to get something passed that might otherwise fail on its own. On the campaign trail, Obama said he was going to put an end to such practices, but so far things are business as usual.

Apparently, Clinton weighed the costs and voted with his pen, just like they all do. The only time any given party talks about creating a line item veto is when there is a sitting president of the opposite party in the white house.

John A. Chick

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Colonel Charles Yancey (January 6, 1816)

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

jchick's picture

jchick says

Let's see. If those opposed to gay marriage base their argument on the bible or God, it's a bad thing. But if the pro-gay marriage side base their argument on "Jesus" it's Ok?

That sounds like a double standard to me.

The truth is, Jesus preached that marriage was ordained by God, and that it was a union between a man and a woman. That the two became "one flesh", and what God has joined together, man should not attempt to separate.

Jesus NEVER condoned sin of any kind. His message was clear; "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand." He offers forgiveness to all who repent and turn from their wicked ways. To those who do, he says "Go, and sin no more."

John A. Chick

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Colonel Charles Yancey (January 6, 1816)

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Gary C says

With all of the arguments going back and forth, some rational and some not so much, I wonder if you could direct me to the chapter and verse were Jesus preached that marriage was ordained by God? I think many would find that chapter and verse comforting in these days.
Thanks.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Gil's picture

Gil says

You found the perfect name for my new band - Introducing - Gil and his Ilk!!!! We're a postmodern, eclectic, fusion Jazz, Ska, Celtic Rock, Country, hip-hop, bluegrass band.
"Reasoning with a liberal is like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end. " Pirate

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Gil's picture

Gil says

I must be doing something right if I'm ticking off libs like this wackjob. Let me know how those book sales do. (that was sarcasm)
"Reasoning with a liberal is like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end. " Pirate

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

thumper65 says

I find it very Interesting that an open minded lib like yourself would stoop to name calling, and tossing out lies of your own. Let's see I am a registered republican. And I don't own a gun though I will shove a sword up your arse if you come to my door uninvited. I know the World isn't 6000 yrs old it is 6001 thousand yrs old ya big dummy. Gays are not evil and dangerous you on the other hand... Iraq didn't have anything to do with 9/11 that is something the dems keep on saying that we believe and since they keep saying it they are starting to believe in their owm rumors, it was weapons of mass destruction as to why we went there the second time, you really need to read up on current events. We don't believe that he is a Muslim his dad was the Muslim, and he was born into the religion. according to Muslims worldwide if you are born to a Muslim Father then you too are a muslim. He is not a communist he is a socialist who has surrounded himself with other radical socialists. As to the antichrist that remains to be seen though I think he is not cunning enough to fit that bill he is more like Dopey of the Seven Dwarfs. We don't believe that lowering taxes for the super rich will help the economy, we believe that lowering taxes for everybosy will help the economy and that reducing spending will help the economy unless of course you want to grow the public sector, the higher taxes and higher spending deffintely works, you need to sign up for economics 101. Who believes that Deregulating banks leads to prosperity. In 1999, Bill Clinton signed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, a bank deregulation bill that swept away a Depression-era law known as Glass-Steagall

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

northwoods says

I am a Republican and I would like to say guns do make you safe. Look at Great Britian's crime stats although crimes by guns are down rapes, burglary,and armed robbery are up.I don't believe gays are eval or dangerous but Im still voting YES on 1. Democrat did think that Iraq had something to do with 9-11 too (later they did a 180 and blamed republicans for it) Obama is go to a muslim school. Obama does have socialist views and for the antichrist things TBA. call me a bigot but I thought I would correct your lies

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Gil's picture

Gil says

Of course right off the bat poorman lets you know that if you disagree with their opinion, you are a bigot. So much for the party of open minds. I guess it only counts if your opinion matches theirs. How much longer are people like these going to compare homosexuality with the civil rights movement?
"Reasoning with a liberal is like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end. " Pirate

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

LewistonNative... says

Well for one this is for a group of peoples civil rights. So, there is always going to be a comparison.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

tron's picture

tron says

one of the definitions of a bigot is someone who disagrees with equality. Use the dictionary, gil, you'd learn something.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Gil's picture

Gil says

Where exactly do you get your definitions? I looked up several and none mentioned equality. The majority stated someone who is opposed to differing views. Sounds more like those calling anyone who disagrees with the gay marriage proponents, not those disagreeing. Most of those who are on the Yes vote side have sated that civil unions with the privileges of traditional marriage would be acceptable, but those on the No vote side refuse to entertain any sort of compromise whatsoever. That is the definition of bigot. Not the one you clearly made up.
"Reasoning with a liberal is like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end. " Pirate

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

John 28 says

why don't you look up jerk, you jerk!

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Gil's picture

Gil says

That's the best you could come up with? Sad, just sad. http://tinyurl.com/yett5mw
"Reasoning with a liberal is like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end. " Pirate

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

news4u says

Often, instead of debating the topic and articulating their thoughts, ideas and opinions, people feel the need to verbally attack one another. One of the first rules in debating is that you may attack the idea, but not the person.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Gil's picture

Gil says

One of the other rules is that once you start attacking the person, you lose.
"Reasoning with a liberal is like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end. " Pirate

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

thumper65 says

Dr Dosh I like to read these comments and the one thing I can't figure out is if you are really a Doctor as doctors usually say intelligent things, yet I have not read one intelligent post by you. You just bash people and don't really stick to the Issue at hand. Grow up and act like a doctor if that is what you really are, otherwise just continue acting like a little P*ssy baby mama's boy that you seem to be.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

gdls1 says

You tell Dr. Dosh to grow up and then you post this: "...little P*ssy baby mama's boy that you seem to be."

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Bravosixalpha's picture

Bravosixalpha says

Elizabeth, you letter was an inspiration. I have thought of other examples of Natural Law that Ruth Oakley could use. The germans used the natural law theory to eliminate drains on society, we could also eliminate the elderly, and close mental hospitals since they don't abide by "Natural Law" The germans were not fond of homosexual citizens, except for Fat herman, and the head pedephile shitler. Apparently Ruth feels threatened by gay and lesbians. Perhaps a family member came out. I am straight, and always have been, but I believe that as a Christian I am bound to accept other ideas, without conditions.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

the_poorman's picture

the_poorman says

Great letter Elizabeth. You argument is well thought out, so you can be sure it will fly right over the heads of the bigots opposed to same sex marriage. These are the same people who as you point out used to condone slavery and prohibit interracial marriage. Thanks for being a reasoned voice of tolerance!

Any problem that can't be solved with taxcuts, republicans pretend doesn't exist.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

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