Friday, November 20, 2009 in Lewiston, Maine

Auburn-Lewiston:
Clear sky, 46.4 °F

Whole country watching Maine's vote on gay marriage issue

PORTLAND (AP) - Gay marriage has lost in every single state in which it has been put to a popular vote. Come Election Day, gay-rights supporters are hoping to make Maine the exception.

In a referendum that is being closely watched around the country and has drawn millions in out-of-state dollars, Maine voters will decide Tuesday whether to repeal a state law that would allow same-sex couples to marry.

If it is repealed, it will be another major defeat for the gay-rights movement, which saw voters in California put a stop to same-sex weddings there last year. A loss in Maine would be especially heartbreaking, given the way New England has been the region of the country most receptive to gay marriage.

The polls have been difficult to interpret. But both sides say the contest will be extremely close and will hinge on turnout, particularly among the 18-to-25-year-olds who went to the polls in great numbers last year to elect President Barack Obama.

"There's a knot in my stomach," said Steve Ryan of Buxton, who operates a property management business with his partner of 34 years, Jim Bishop. "We're very encouraged, and we're very worried at the same time."

Gay-marriage supporters have framed the issue as a matter of equality for all families, straight or gay. Opponents say that allowing same-sex couples to wed would be a dangerous social experiment and that Maine's domestic registry law could simply be bolstered to give gays additional legal rights.

"The stakes are very high for both sides. The gay marriage community has never won at the ballot box before on a straight up-or-down vote," said Frank Schubert, who coordinated the campaign to override California's highest court and repeal gay marriage there.

Over the past five years, 26 states have passed constitutional amendments limiting marriage to a man and a woman.

The Maine law was passed by the Legislature last spring but never went into effect because of a petition drive by opponents. Five other states have legalized gay marriage: Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Vermont - all in New England - and Iowa. All five of them did it by way of court or legislative action, not referendums.

"California was just a dress rehearsal for Maine," said Christian Potholm, a political science professor at Bowdoin College in Brunswick.

In related action Tuesday, voters in Washington state will decide whether to expand their domestic partnership law, and people in Kalamazoo, Mich., will consider whether to prohibit discrimination against gays.

In Portland, boisterous supporters of gay marriage - many of them students - far outnumbered the other side at the University of Southern Maine debate last week.

Enthusiasm for gay marriage has swept the campus, said Leigh Charest, 19. "People feel it's right and they want to do as much as they can," Charest said.

In addition to reaching out to young people, gay-marriage defenders have tried to make the campaign about the "Maine values" of personal freedom - the flinty, just-let-me-be attitude embodied by Maine's rugged lobstermen, loggers and outdoorsmen.

The pro-gay-marriage side has "very adeptly said this is not a campaign about telling people what they have to do. It's about allowing people the independence to do what they want to do. That's a basic, firm Maine value," said Sandy Maisel, director of the Goldfarb Center for Public Affairs and Civic Engagement at Colby College in Waterville.

Philip Spooner, an 87-year-old World War II medic and ambulance driver, became an Internet sensation thanks to his testimony in favor of gay marriage at a public hearing.

On the video, viewed more than a half-million times on YouTube, the retired truck driver and laundry operator and lifelong Republican from Biddeford said he raised four boys - three straight, one gay - and expected them to be treated the same.

"It takes all kinds of people to make the world go," he said. "It doesn't make sense that some people who love each other can marry and others can't, just because of who they are. This is what we fought for in World War II, that idea that we can be different and still be equal."

As in California, the National Organization for Marriage has been a major contributor, funneling $1.5 million to those fighting same-sex marriage in Maine.

The New Jersey-based organization has come under fire for refusing to release the names of its contributors as required by Maine law, saying the measure violates the First Amendment. The state ethics commission is investigating.


Comments

MeinMaine says

Applauding DR as well, thanks for the awesome post! I can't wait until today is over for sure.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

DR says

I don't give a flaming toot about who gets married to who, as long as everyone's a consenting adult in their right minds and not harassing anybody else.

How about an issue that is actually relevant to nearly all of us? Such as
Question 2, “Do you want to cut the rate of the municipal excise tax by an average of 55% on motor vehicles less than six years old and exempt hybrid and other alternative-energy and highly fuel-efficient motor vehicles from sales tax and three years of excise tax?”

SURE, why not? All those folks who just got an enormous cash incentives for trading in their old (and often perfectly serviceable) car to decadently splurge on a shiny new one, should now be given a 45% excise tax cut on top of what they already got? Are you freakin' kidding me? And why should owners of some cars be entirely exempt from paying their fair share of taxes? Reasonable incentives are one thing. Giving big tax breaks to only the people who can afford or are irresponsible enough to take on a new or used car loan is insane. How about those of us still driving around in old cars that actually get BETTER gas mileage than some newer, so-called economy cars? What breaks do we get?

And how about giving property tax breaks for people who happen to live in towns where the officials are guilty of unbridled waste, or simply spend irresponsibly, while people can barely afford to buy or keep a decent home due to skyrocketing taxes?

Oh no. Let's not think about issues directly affecting our ability to pay for the necessities of life. Let's waste breath arguing about who marries who.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Raven's picture

Raven says

*stands and applauds* You have a very good point!

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

starsmyles's picture

starsmyles says

Joins raven in applause ..well said DR I whole heartedly agree.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

SRV says

Think BYS, I will try and answer your question if you would do the same with the question I posed to you. I do not believe that same sex couples are truly after the "institution of marriage" (the rights afforded thereunder) but rather that believe that knocking down any distinction between them and opposite sex marriages is a major step towards wide spread societal acceptance that there is no difference between the nature of their relationship and that of a marriage where, at least for many, one major reason for the union is to have children. That is also one major reason why our state and federal laws provide incentives to enter into such a relationship. Obviously many people get married who have intention of having children and that rationale falls by the wayside since those people receive the benefits anyway but nevertheless one of the reasons why those laws were drafted was to encourage married individuals to have children. As I also said earlier, I may very well vote "no" simply because I believe granting the rights outweigh reservations about insisting upon the term marriage and no other, but again, the law draws distinctions and places labels on many similar but no identical legal relationships.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

SRV says

Wrong, an honest reading of my posts simply reflects that my point that the vast the majority of separate but equal race cases involved vastly unequal situations, even if "Brown" did not. My point was simply that not all differences in treatment are equivalent. As I said, why else would the law insist on differentiating between fathers, and step fathers, adopted children from those born to a couple, common law marriage from those that are registered, etc. How are any of these legally sanctioned distinctions any different?

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

thinkbeforeyouspeak's picture

thinkbeforeyouspeak says

OK, I'm a dishonest reader. Fine. But at least I do read and respond to your queries. One of my questions to you still stands, though: Why exclude gays and lesbians from the institution of marriage? If you want to maintain a separate category of union for them, there must be a reason. What is it? Do you have an answer?

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

SRV says

No one is debating the wisdom of segragation. But there is a world of difference between state sanctioned separation of the races and handing handing out a different colored form to one type of union to differentiate it from another.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

thinkbeforeyouspeak's picture

thinkbeforeyouspeak says

And, to be clear, you were actually debating the wisdom of segregation. Don't try to wriggle out of the position you took. You were the one who implied that maintaining separate categories of treatment is justified as long as the categories of treatment are tangibly equivalent. That, my friend, is the essence of the logic of Plessy v. Ferguson.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

thinkbeforeyouspeak's picture

thinkbeforeyouspeak says

But my question to you remains: Why exclude gays and lesbians from the institution of marriage? If you want to maintain a separate category of union for them, there must be a reason. What is it?

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

SRV says

The "separate but equal" analogy doesn't fly because the laws struck down in race cases almost universally always involved institutions (lodging, restaurants...) that were patently not equal. The fact that say a green tinted form might be handed to those seeking a fully vested civil union, while a blue one might be handed to those seeking marriage, if all rights given under either is the same, is hardly the same as requiring those of different races to be in separate railcars, schools or restaurants.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

thinkbeforeyouspeak's picture

thinkbeforeyouspeak says

Wrong. When the U.S. Supreme Court struck down Plessy v. Ferguson (which it did in the 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision), it held that "in the field of public education, the doctrine of 'separate but equal' has no place. Separate educational facilities are inherently unequal." There is no implication here that making the facilities equal in concrete ways (e.g., equal funding) would ameliorate the problem. They say clearly: "Does segregation of children in public schools solely on the basis of race, even though the physical facilities and other "tangible" factors may be equal, deprive the children of the minority group of equal educational opportunities? We believe that it does." Later, they say, "Segregation of white and colored children in public schools has a detrimental effect upon the colored children. The impact is greater when it has the sanction of the law, for the policy of separating the races is usually interpreted as denoting the inferiority of the negro group. A sense of inferiority affects the motivation of a child to learn. Segregation with the sanction of law, therefore, has a tendency to [retard] the educational and mental development of negro children and to deprive them of some of the benefits they would receive in a racial[ly] integrated school system." Similar arguments could be made were we to sanction a legal separation between marriage for straights and a kind of "marriage but by a different name" for gays and lesbians. The state would be sanctioning a legal distinction that reinforces a societal stigma. That's why I oppose it.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Raven's picture

Raven says

Was I the only one who saw Sunday's paper, which had the list of 106 MAINE BASED RELIGIOUS OFFICIALS - pastors, clergymen, reverends, etc., from all different faiths, urging people to VOTE NO on QUESTION 1?? If the men who lead these churches are standing behind gay marriage, why are so many of you using religion as a reason to vote against it?

And besides, what ever happened to separation of church and state? They are voting on a bill, people, not trying to rewrite the bible. And on that note, I believe that much of the bible is open to interpretation, anyway - I've seen so many people of the same faith read the same passage and explain it in many different ways. Who are WE to say we KNOW for SURE what GOD WANTS?

Put yourself in their shoes ... how would you feel if your rights were taken away?

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

tron's picture

tron says

I think everyone has made up their minds already and nothing anyone says will change it. Therefore vote tomorrow and see who wins round one!

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

SRV says

"ThinkBYS," there is obviously nothing "wrong" with people who are gay. However, the law uses the word "step," "half," "adopted" before father, mother, or child etc. to identify the nature of that legal relationship to others in that family even though a "stepfather," "halfbrother," or "adopted" child are obviously no less important or should be treated any differently than an actual father, brother or a child born to a couple rather than adopted. While I may still vote "No" simply because I still believe that granting the legal rights involved may be more important that not doing so just because of insistance on the word "marriage," I do fear that by insisting on that term and declaring anything else the equivalent of a "Plessy v Ferguson" violation is semantics over substance and alienates others who would otherwise say, find any other word, and we'll support you in droves and really tick off those who are motivated against gays purely by hate or fear.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

thinkbeforeyouspeak's picture

thinkbeforeyouspeak says

I don't know family law well enough to judge whether the analogy you draw is valid, or even if it is, whether I would consider the use of those legal terms to be necessary. (It's also funny that you invoke that analogy to salvage your position, at the same time that you imply that *I* am valuing semantics over substance.) In any case, it still doesn't make a case for legally reinforcing a hurtful stigma by implying that gays and lesbians are somehow different in a way that justifies excluding them from the institution of marriage. If there's nothing wrong with gays or lesbians why would we treat them that way? It's tantamount to telling them that they're second class citizens.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

northwoods says

OK here it is the defition of bigot- a person who is utterly intolerant ofany differing creed, belief, or opinion.
Found on dictionary.com

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

SRV says

Jon, Glad to know I do not actually "exist," but the fact is that I have no problem whatsoever extending every legal right (adoption, medical decisions, spousal insurance...)afforded to long term committed sex couples as those available to married individuals because it is my belief that an individual's orientation is set at birth and neither environment nor exposure to "gay" people or lifestyle has anything to do with who you become. I supported both the addition of orientation protection to the law as well as the creation of the same sex registry to at least make a step towards granting some of the rights given to married couples. The fact that others may vote against this measure out of spite, or fear, or even hate, does not mean that all others who vote the same way have the same motivation.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

thinkbeforeyouspeak's picture

thinkbeforeyouspeak says

SRV, see my earlier comment in reply to you. If I read your correctly, you're planning to vote "yes" on 1 in order to limit the term "marriage" to opposite-sex couples. (Correct me if I'm wrong, and you actually plan to vote "no.") If that's true, I wonder what you think is wrong with gays and lesbians that justifies excluding them from the institution of marriage?

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

jalbrecht1 says

"...even to those who are fully committed to granting the full range of legal rights to same sex couples under any other name but "marriage,".. No such people exist. The Yes folks are just throwing that out now to create the false impression that they now support civil unions. The don't. They opposed the domestic registry. They opposed civil unions. And now they oppose Marriage Equality. Read Mrs McG posts. This is about legitimizing gays in her eyes. Not about marriage at all. Read the other similiar posts. Look at Yon1 advertizing. Nothing they have to say has anything to do with marriage. What they want is to eliminate gays. There is no positive Yes on 1 message. Jon Albrecht Dixfield

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

northwoods says

Jon
I do think Gay should have civil union under the law I just dont see why they need to have the marrage label. If this is about two people in love then why do they need to have any label. This whole thing is about money. I think that gays should be able to have a civil union relationship and take care of one another.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Genisek2004 says

In civil unions aren't they denied filing joint tax returns and end of life issues can be very tricky if immediate family desire it to be so.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

northwoods says

Genisek2004 think about this for a minute the only real thing gays are denied as of right know is the tax return. that is it this whole thing is about money. Any person can name any other person their PA. Also Maine already have civil union. so forget love forget equilty the whole thing is for money.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

northwoods says

yes they are denied the joint taxes but the end of life stuff is quite easy to fix so that the spouse can have complete control. By have power of atterony giving to the spouse a person can make all the decision for the spouse in the hospital. The civil union is a fair way to solve this issue making all but a few on either side happy.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Brenda74 says

Why should gay couples have to go through the extra step of getting power of attorney when hetero couples don't?

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Mrs. McG says

Hold de door! I WILL! NOT! stand for being described as someone who stands against gay PERSONS! or as you put it "legitimizing gays." I WILL. NOT. STAND FOR IT! I am wholly in favor of UPHOLDING the DIGNITY of ALL persons, including those with same-sex attaction. I have friends and family whom I love and am committed to treating with equal respect and dignity. So, I cannot bear being drawn up as someone who seeks to depersonalize individuals with same-sex attraction. My desire is quite the opposite, I assure you.

What I am squarely opposed to is societal institution, acceptance and endorsement of sexual acts contrary to human dignity. And, if you know anything about the gay subculture, they as much as admit that this fight for "marriage equality" is less about marriage than seeking cultural normalization of their sexual preferences.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

gdls1 says

Mrs. McG,
(I still have a hard time with the irony of your using the MRS. title...it's kind of like shoving it in the face of all the lesbians who cannot use that title. But that's another issue.)
You continue to imply that you are not homophobic. Yet you seem to have a problem with the SEX aspect of it. You say "same-sex attraction" is okay, but not the act of sex between two people of the same gender -- that's deviant and perverse. (I know, you're probably cringing just reading that.) But if you cannot accept the whole person, as you insist on denying them any fulfillment of their instinctive sexual desires, then you are indeed homophobic.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Mrs. McG says

Donna -

I find that comment regarding the irony of my "Mrs." rather funny, since I'm more likely to have chosen it not with lesbians in mind than married, heterosexual feminists who opt for the ambiguous "Ms." -- throwing off the patriarchy and all that. And, you'll forgive me for using your first name - I always read gdls1 as "godless one" and none of us is godless. Anyway...

RE: Homophobia - In reality, a "phobia" describes someone who has an irrational and uncontrollable pathological fear of someone or something. I have no such pathology with regard to persons with same-sex attraction. I do not fear them; I do not hate them - la la la, ad nauseam. Can anyone hear me yet?

People generally do not give a free pass to everyone to fulfill any instinctive sexual desire whatsoever. I am not unjustly discrimating against the bigamist when I say his desire for more than one wife is not in keeping with the dignity of marriage or women.

I do accept and love the whole person when I accept a person with same-sex attraction. But same-sex attraction is an element of human brokeness, not wholeness. But I love whole persons even when that means not enabling the desires stemming from human brokeness. If my husband is given to alcoholism, do I love him less because I do not accept his drinking? What if he was genetically predispositioned to alcoholism? Am I being unfair in denying him free and easy access to alcohol - even discouraging him from drinking?

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

gdls1 says

Ms. McG,
My chosen screen name is gdls1. I do not appreciate your dismissive disregard and disrespect. Beneath you verbally intelligent discourse, you are indeed a homophobic person.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Mrs. McG says

My apologies. I sincerely thought it less depersonalizing to use a name. And, since internet conversations can get out of hand when we fail to realize the person on the other end of the screen reading is indeed a person, I prefer to personalize as much as possible. No disrespect meant.

I find your repeated assurance that I am indeed, without doubt, "homophobic" as mean and judgemental as it is irrational. People who disagree with you are not necessarily at heart hateful people. I'm sorry for you that you see me and others in the world so inflexibly.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

tron's picture

tron says

Susie you're a real piece! And since you are now from "away" you really don't have a dog in this fight, so leave it to us brave Maine souls who care for this state and don't abandon it's when convenient.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Mrs. McG says

Abandon it when it's convenient. How nice. You're not only a judgemental fellow - you're a liar bent on smearing those who disagree with you. You asked me in a previous thread why I left the state and I told you my husband's job required the move. There's a major difference between convenience and livelihood. And since this vote affects the lives of my immediate family, it sure as heck affects me. And, as you the saying goes, "As Maine goes, so goes the nation." Are you really so insecure about the strength or rigteousness of your side of the issue that you have to decry someone's right to speak about it in comment boxes?

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Joseph's picture

Joseph says

As laudable as your assertion may TRY to be . . . it's nothing more than an oxymoronic statement. What you're clearly stating is a homosexual's "dignity" not withstanding, you will not stand for sexual deviants trying to assert themselves into society. But trying to be nice about it all the while. OK, fine. But what you wrote really just smacks of "No, I'm not prejudiced, really I'm not. Some of my best friends are (insert type of person here)."

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Mrs. McG says

What exactly I am trying to say is exactly what I said. I am not for institutionalizing deviant, self-damaging, societally damaging behaviors, no. However, as opposed to prejudice against anti-semitism and racism, which is based solely on birth and geneaology, my opposition to same-sex marriage stems from opposition to a destructive behavior which is something freely chosen, even if the attraction is not freely chosen. In the same way I would be opposed to normalizing alcoholism, even though there is evidence of genetic predisposition to that behavior. The critical distinction is between behaviors and persons.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Joseph's picture

Joseph says

Homosexuals are not deviant, self-damaging, societal misfits. And this isn't an issue about sex and your disgust and objections about it. This is about dignity, fairness and civil equality. I pay my taxes and take care of the responsibilities of life faithfully. I want no more out of life than what everyone else has. I deserve to live my life as equally as my brother. Prejudice is a stalwart belief that one person is superior to another or group of people via unreasonable and unfair actions or words. To equate gay couples whom wish to marry as deviant is unfair, unjust, prejudiced and pretty darn mean. So write on and on . . . and on as you have. It's merely hot hair, taking up more scrolling space on a newspaper's web site. I suggest you retire for the evening and let a few others have at it.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Mrs. McG says

"Homosexuals are not deviant, self-damaging, societal misfits."

This is what you keep trying to do to my statements. This is EXACTLY what I ADAMANTLY OPPOSE having done - classifying the individual as the behavior or as equal to the behavior.

Sodomy is deviant sexual *behavior* - a deviant sexual choice. However, that does not mean I believe persons with same-sex attractions are inherently deviant persons. When my toddler does something naughty, I don't tell her "SHE" is naughty - what she has DONE is naughty. She is not the bad thing she does. She is not a "bad girl," but scribbling on Mama's buffet table is bad, and I ain't just being closed minded about the issue and I do still LOVE my girl.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Joseph's picture

Joseph says

Symantecs. You're parsing words and splitting hairs. Deriding homosexuals for no other reason than the sexual act while simultaneously extolling their virtue as human beings is an incompatible argument. Your arguments read hollow. Vacuous. A white elephant. A paper tiger. Tempest in a teapot. Shall I go on? I'm assuming you're voting yes? Fine then, vote. But afterwhich, I seriously hope you consider getting off this razor thin line you sit upon and decide once and for all how you plan on treating your fellow gay and lesbian neighbors. Loving them and all the while hating what they do is still an oxymoron.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Mrs. McG says

No, this is not a matter semantics. It is a matter of using words according to their meanings - you are conflating person with action. And, you know in your heart that it is no more an oxymoron to love persons with same-sex attraction and call acting upon their sexual inclinations sinful than it is to love even myself and call acting upon my inclinations to lose my temper sinful. The reality is that anyone we love is going to also at some time choose to do something which is wrong - maybe even habitually. The answer to this reality is not to deny reality and call the act "good" which we know is really "bad."

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Rinoblast's picture

Rinoblast says

Sodomy occurs in over 1,000 animal species (look it up). And if animals are not sentient beings making a choice, their actions therefor must be natural. Therefor, in the world we live in, sodomy is a naturally occurring act for them. Not a big stretch to think it's natural for us too.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Mrs. McG says

Many animals also eat their young - some, like the praying mantis will eat their mates - are you advocating that because this happens in the natural world that human persons with the same inclinations follow suit and we should as a society just accept that?

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

gdls1 says

Homosexual acceptance is not about scribbling on your buffet table. Sex between two women or two men is not bad behavior. It seems that way to you because you have a homophobic gene. You were probably born that way.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Mrs. McG says

You miss the essential point: Person A can love Person B, even when Person B does something Person A judges is a wrongful act.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Brenda74 says

I get it you still care for a gay person you just hate and think a sex act they do is wrong. Great. I get it. But why does that mean you have the right to outlaw a gay person from marring who they love?

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Mrs. McG says

Thank you! I'm glad someone gets it! Because I don't believe the purpose of marriage is to give societal advantages to two people *solely* because they are "in love" and want to make a public relationship commitment to one another - not even for heterosexual couples. Marriage exists for the purpose of giving stability to families and society. Our rights as individuals within society are related to our duties. Heterosexuals have a duty to procreate for the sake of the propagation of humanity. They have a right to marriage (which is intended to be until death do part) to see to give stability to the family unit and by extension, society.

But homosexuals may adopt, and these children by adoption need a stable family unit. I agree they do need a stable family unit. But I do not agree with placing children with homosexual couples. I grew up in a family with one parent because one of my parents died when I was still young. The effects of growing up without a father in the house or even a father figure was pretty seriously detrimental. It was unfortunate that my father should have died. But to choose not to give children parents of both sexes purposely is wrong. Human beings need the influence of complementary sexes to grow up pyschologically and emotionally.

There are heterosexual couples I wouldn't let adopt a dog, and persons with same sex attraction I would wholeheartedly trust to babysit my child. But fundamentally, I believe the duty of raising children requires mothers and fathers.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

thinkbeforeyouspeak's picture

thinkbeforeyouspeak says

If that second paragraph describes your love for your gay and lesbian friends and family, and your commitment to "treating [them] with equal respect and dignity," I can only say that, ma'am, you have a rather odd definition of "love," "respect," and "dignity."

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Mrs. McG says

Sometimes my daughter wants (or thinks she wants) something I know will cause her harm. Is it loving to say to her: "Do whatever makes you happy, darling." when I know the consequences of that desire?

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

thinkbeforeyouspeak's picture

thinkbeforeyouspeak says

OK, my turn: What evidence do you have that allowing same-sex couples to marry would be harmful?

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Mrs. McG says

Ultimately, I am speaking on a spiritual level. Depersonalizing sex acts are harmful to a person's soul - in an objective sense (I don't wish to judge anyone as the stand before God on a personal level - there are mitigating factors of culpability).

But even in a secular and naturalistic sense, there is long-standing evidence that gay men can be expected to have shorter lives, more sexually transmitted diseases and other serious health risks: Male homosexuals are prone to cancer (especially anal cancer, which is almost unheard-of in male heterosexuals) and various sexually transmitted diseases, including urethritis, laryngitis, prostatitis, hepatitis A and B, syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, herpes, and genital warts (which are caused by the human papilloma virus, which also causes genital cancers). Lesbians are at lower risk for STDs but at high risk for breast cancer. Homosexuals of both sexes have high rates of drug abuse, including cocaine, marijuana, LSD and other psychedelics, barbiturates, and amyl nitrate. (See http://www.catholic.com/library/gay_marriage.asp under the title "What does the scientific evidence show about homosexuality?," and footnotes for concurring research.)

Homosexuals are more prone to suicide - 31/2 times more likely (and are even more prone to suicide than heterosexuals in cultures where same-sex relationships are approved and affirmed), domestic abuse between partners of the same sex has a remarkably higher incidence rate than among opposite sex couples. The list goes on - the high rates of promiscuity which is normative behavior for homosexuals (even homosexuals claiming to be in committed relationships) is never psychologically, emotionally, or physically healthy (and neither is such behavior likewise healthy for heterosexuals).

Should I continue?

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

gdls1 says

"Depersonalizing sex acts are harmful to a person's soul"... Mrs. McG, that is pure "judgement" on your part, and I think it's against your religion.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

thinkbeforeyouspeak's picture

thinkbeforeyouspeak says

I went to the http://www.catholic.com/library/gay_marriage.asp site and did a wee bit of research, starting with the footnotes. It's best to be a critical consumer of such material, rather than take it at face value (even if it supports your preconceived notions). Anyway, your claim that "Homosexuals are more prone to suicide - 3 1/2 times more likely" is similar to (and probably based on) their claim that "Homosexuals of both sexes remain ... 3½ times more likely to commit suicide successfully." which is based on Footnote 48. Fortunately, I have electronic access to the journal Pediatrics, which is what that footnote refers to. Having just downloaded it (and because I am at work, and thus have other duties), I can't read the entire article now. (But I suspect that Mrs. McG has not even laid eyes on it.) But even at a glance, I can tell that the authors conducted a study of gay and lesbian adolescents who self-identified as gay and lesbian at that age. As they note, this group may not be representative of all gays and lesbians. So it's wrong to imply that they are, as the article at catholic.com does. As the authors of the original empirical report note, "Although this study identifies a subsample of GLB [gay, lesbian, and bisexual] youth that is disproportionately at risk for a number of negative health outcomes and risk behaviors, it is important to realize that the majority of GLB youth cope with a variety of stressors to become healthy and productive adults. GLB youth, such as those who have not used drugs or initiated sexual activity, as well as those who may self-identify until adulthood, may not have the same high-risk profile as our study population." Although even some of the premises in this quote are debatable, it is noteworthy that the researchers exercise caution in interpreting their findings. This is a mark of someone at least trying to do good science, as opposed to someone (or some church) with an ideological cause to advance, who cherrypicks and distorts the evidence. It's also worth noting that the authors of the original empirical report place the high risk behavior of their sample into a broader context: "Homosexual, bisexual, and other adolescents confronting issues of sexual expression or orientation have been identified as facing stresses including emotional isolation, social rejection, and lowered self-esteem...These issues challenge many adolescents' emotional and psychological development and most likely contribute to the risk of developing the syndrome of risk behaviors that Jessor [another researcher] describes" including suicide attempts. To but it briefly, adolescents who self-identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual face special risks, including rejection and isolation, much of which is by their peers who are not supportive of them. If so, this does not describe any harm inherent in being gay. Rather, it is a reminder to the rest of us of the harm we can do when tell gays and lesbians that they are less than the rest of us, or imply it with our actions. So, Mrs. McG, if you are really all that concerned about children, I urge you to think about what the effect will be on gay and lesbian adolescents, who are already struggling with their identity, if the voters of the state of Maine say tomorrow that gay and lesbian couples are second-class citizens? After all, that's what a "yes" vote on Issue 1 says, even if you refuse to see it or admit to it.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

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