Saturday, November 21, 2009 in Lewiston, Maine

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Scouts protest proposed sale of Camp Gustin

LEWISTON — In hard economic times, there are circumstances for which even a Boy Scout cannot be prepared.

More than four dozen Scouts, former Scouts and Scout leaders gathered Wednesday night to discuss what has become a matter of great emotion — the potential sale of Camp Gustin, which has been the property of the Boy Scouts of America since 1933.

"Six of my boys went through there," said Sandra Wood, who was at the Abnaki District meeting with two of her Scouts. "We're all looking to keep kids out of trouble and now they want to get rid of something that keeps them off the streets. It makes no sense."

The group at Holy Family Church on Thursday night consisted of dozens of children in full Scouts uniform and grown men wearing similar garb. They came to express dissatisfaction with the notion of selling a camp that has been a temporary home to hundreds — if not thousands — of boys over the generations.

"It's sad," said Andy Beaudoin, who attended the meeting with his 11-year-old son. "You've got kids who have been going to Camp Gustin for years and now they want to get rid of it. The question is, 'Why?'"

Officials from Pine Tree Council, the Maine chapter of the Boy Scouts, were there to try to answer that question.

The reasons they listed were not so different from those difficulties experienced by other businesses and organizations around the nation. Times are tough. Bills are due and the funds to pay them are short.

"We've come to the conclusion that we have to have an open mind," said Walt Stinson, Pine Tree Council's vice-president for properties. "We've got to recognize that these are difficult times."

Last year, the council operated at a deficit of $180,000. Overall, it has a debt of nearly $1 million. And there sits Camp Gustin with its pavilion, two outhouses and a pump house, an arrangement of property that could fetch up to $375,000.

"Could we use those assets, those dollars, to do something else?" asked Pete Ventre, volunteer president of the council and a scoutmaster in Cumberland.

It was a rhetorical question, mostly. Much of the debate Wednesday night focused on whether the money a sale could generate would be worth the loss of Gustin.

The camp is on roughly 100 acres around Loon Pond in Sabattus. It was deeded to the Scouts by Charles W. Gustin in 1933. Since then, countless boys have learned to swim, tie knots, pitch tents, build fires and save lives at Camp Gustin.

Those who are in the process of learning those things had plenty to say Wednesday night.

"Gustin, it's been part of my life since Cub Scouts," said Ian Clavette, now 16 and a senior patrol leader with Troop 109. "Without it, I couldn't have gotten this far. It's a beautiful camp. It would be a shame if they sold it."

"All the people there are so nice," said 11-year-old Scout Ajay Beaudoin. "Every time I'm there, I say, 'Hallelujah for Camp Gustin.'"

"I've been going there since I was a Tiger," said 13-year-old Robert Wood, a second-class Scout with Troop 109. "We've done a lot of work there and learned a lot. I hope they don't get rid of it."

But sentiment was not enough to convince those on the council that the camp should not be sold. Of the four properties they could potentially put on the market, they said, Camp Gustin is used the least.

"It's being used," said Sandra Wood. "It's not just sitting there."

According to council records, however, Camp Gustin remains empty almost as much as it is occupied, in spite of its use as a day camp for 100-plus kids. Of the four properties they have to possibly sell, Ventre said, Gustin makes the most sense.

Although not everything could be explained with dollars and cents.

One man, who owns property around Loon Pond, near Camp Gustin, said he feared what would happen if the land falls out of the hands of the Boy Scouts. Development could begin, the ecosystem could begin to decline and the pond could suffer.

A representative from the Androscoggin Land Trust also expressed concerns on behalf of that group. Earlier in the year, it was approached by Pine Tree Council executives about possibly buying the property. The land trust requested a meeting to discuss how conservation efforts might be addressed.

In a statement handed out at the meeting, officials of the ALT said: "We were declined an option to sit down and discuss a conservation outcome and to be honest, remain concerned that a facility that has been so important to generations of Scouts and their introduction to the outdoors and the Androscoggin River watershed has been reduced to a real estate transaction seeking to attain maximum financial returns."

Maximum financial gain, the statement suggested, should be taken off the table as a priority and other alternatives explored.
The Abnaki District and the Pine Tree Council will meet again next week. Should they decide to sell Camp Gustin, Ventre estimated it would take a few months to become final.

"Once it's sold," he said, "it's gone for good."

Which was a point not lost on many.

Dennis Bowden, a lifelong Scout and now chairman of the Abnaki District Training Committee, suggested that dollar figures may prove insufficient when compared to the loss of a camp so immersed in the history of Maine scouting.

"What happens after that money runs out?" he said. "You'll never, ever get a piece of land like that again in Maine."

mlaflamme@sunjournal.com


Comments

gregory says

In Los Angeles, once an individual is defined as mentally disabled and the court settles a conservatorship, different fees will be required by the conservator on the custody. It is actually expensive. People would have to spend funds even before the conservatorship is settled by the court, same as persistent expenses after the conservator is in place.Conservatorship in Los Angeles, california probate lawyer.

Posted 1 week ago (permalink)

lobster says

They must have a lot of bloated staff to run up a deficit of $180,000 and a debt of $1 million. Sell the Council headquarters and get some people with financial sense to run the Council.

Posted 1 week ago (permalink)

msmane's picture

msmane says

msmane

When the Pine Tree Council says that it has debt of one million dollars, does that figure include the mortgage on the Council Headquarters in South Portland? What are the operating expenses of the Council? How many employees are there and at what salary level?
Is the Council tax exempt re: their real estate holdings?

Posted 1 week ago (permalink)

big daddy says

The Pine Tree Council is being short sighted in this too make money.As an Asst. Scoutmaster with a Boy Scout Troop,and a father of a Life Scout and a Webelos who's crossing over to Boy Scout this year are disheartened at the council. We have been at Camp Gustin more times than I can count and enjoy having a place to campout and go canoeing at the same location is priceless. I've been to Camp Bomazeen and it is an lousy place to get to in the winter and you have to hike up a hill to use the bathroom and Camp Hinds hasn't been improved any since my kids went there. The council wastes our money on the new store and over bloated staff. As for you mckinnley what is your problem with some thing that benefits kids are you that bitter you turn out your lights on Halloween and tell young kids there is no Santa Claus also.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Robert61 says

Dear friends of scouting, I am a local volunteer in scouting and assist within the district as time permits. It is crucial that our voices are heard on this issue and that the people making this decision change their stance. It's not just about Camp Gustin, its also about Hinds, Bomazeen and Nutter, the only 4 remaining camps owned by this council. The sale of this property will not fix the financial woes. We are working to compile an electronic list of people who agree with not selling the property (it makes money for council). If you agree, please send an email with your name, address & email so we can add you to the list. Within the next few days we will have a site page up under www.bsatroop007.org with details and updates as to our efforts. you can send me an email at scoutreed@aol.com. As to the issues over discrimination - thats a national policy not one made by local boys and leaders, don't hold that against a program which continues to turn out excellent citizens and leaders.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

NewsGeek21 says

By the way I'm not some racist bigot who hates people if their gay, straight, Jewish, Black, White, Latino, Somolian, Athiest, Muslim, or sexist. Anyone who actually thinks us teens discriminate people of these qualities most likely has never been in the scouting program and never will be as they will find most of us are trying to change the system peacefully. Hell, we even have a venture crew that has both boys and girls in it so we aren't really sexist anymore either!

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Nancy1 says

I agree, no one should assume all members hate or want to discriminate against others. Rules of the organization at the very top are what's hurting funding and support. I hope the rules can be changed to allow all families. That would be truly wonderful!!
Edited to add: I was a den mother and my girls were in Scouts too. It was years later that I learned about the organization's policies of exclusion, back in the early 80's it was not even talked about and not an issue I knew about.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

NewsGeek21 says

I'm 15, go to L.H.S., and a life scout right now in troop 116 Lewiston Maine. I was at last nights meeting and I must say the idea of them trying to sell my camp for 325k - 375k is just plain dumb. Camp Gustin is one of 4 camps in Maine owned by our council and it is the only place that my troop can bike to, set up a tent, then come home the same way we got out there. Pine Tree Council is just going to waste our precious camp on another camp called Camp William Hinds in Raymond. Camp Hinds is the one true money maker in this council and it is in need of serious repairs, so the council is trying divert all they cash they have to just pay for repairs on basic stuff like motorboats, sailboats, ammunition for rifle ranges, tents, food (the food will always suck haha), a new dining hall, more staff, more craft supplies, and more. Also council wasted about a million on a brand new store in South Portland just across from the airport. It is a nice place don't get me wrong, but there wasn't anything wrong with the old place we use to have in Portland. The building hasn't made a dime in profit and most likely won't. What really blew my mind was last night they stood up in front of us and told us that they wanted to turn Camp Bomazeen into a new state of the art cub scout world when they can't even afford a new dining hall at Hinds that would cost 3 million. They would need all the gear mentioned above at Hinds + more along with basic buildings like a Med lodge, a new road (250k) and actually storm proof shelters. So as much as I want better camps across the state, I just don't see why losing the one camp we have that I can actually pitch a tent, sleep under the stars, fish, and have a good time at needs to be sold when it only cost 5,000 - 7,500 to run each year.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Nancy1 says

mckinnley does have a point. After the Supreme Court determined in 2000 (BSA v Dale) that BSA was a private organization and as such has the right to continue to discriminate, funding from organizations such as United Way, Chase Manhattan Bank, Levi Strauss, Fleet Bank, CVS/pharmacy, and Pew Charitable Trusts stopped. This has certainly harmed BSA's bottom line to the tune of millions of dollars across the board.
Regarding Obama, he was asked not to accept the title of Presidency of the BSA because of their policies of exclusion. He chose to ignore the request.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

cubscoutmom1 says

But we must keep 1 thing in mind.....THE BOYS do not discriminate, children are not biased they dont care who you are, what you look like, how you are different they like people for who they are as people. A good true scout excepts everyone! In my experience those are the type of boys we are raising here in our local area.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Nancy1 says

The boys may like and accept people for who they are, but if they have a friend who is gay, athiest, or agnostic, that friend is NOT allowed to be a fellow member of the boy scouts. You may think it's a good policy. Many do not, and have withdrawn financial support for BSA.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

mckinnley says

I was not referring to the boys; I was referring to the organization as a whole. The children involved are the innocent bystanders to the policies set forth by the national organization, and if the organization had been a little more open minded, they would have not lost the millions in donations.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

bob.mare4@myfai... says

fixit001 - You need to be fixed. Your agenda has absolutely NOTHING to do with this story. But trying to link them, you have lost ALL credibility. Go away and let well-meaning people try and solve a real problem.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Scottie says

Seems like some extremely poor financial decisions have been made over the last few years leading up to the PTC's current troubles. They need to look at alternatives, selling a camp should be the absolute last resort. The biggest impression I always got from visiting the different camps in the state was that the Boy Scout organization had really planned well in acquiring the magnificent camp sites over the years. If they sell Gustin, it is gone forever. It will only be a very short term fix to their financial problems and they will be in the same situation shortly, maybe even only a year from now! An alternative would be to consolidate the portland office in half and rent out the other half as premium office space (Portland office space, right by the airport - hello $$). This would generate a constant revenue stream while not affecting the boys directly. The PTC's poor handling of it's finances make me wonder if I've made the right choice when I donated money every year for Friend of Scouting... If they do sell Gustin, I guarantee they will not be getting anymore donations from me.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Bubbles says

If you would still like to make a financial donation to scouting, reach out to a local troop and ask to make a direct donation to the troop. Some troops have received direct donations in the past and have been able to send a boy to camp that might not have been able to afford to go before. There are many ways to support scouting without directly supporting a part of it you do not believe in.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Don says

I would think that deeded property would fall under a program that protects it from the unnecessary sale such as other state owned properties. Also wouldn't the Pine Tree Council want to be seen as a group that supports the Boy Scouts and not a group that is only focusing on financial prosperity? I'm sure that if Pine Tree would put as much effort into finding ways to help the Boy Scouts raise funds to keep the property as they are in finding a way to sell the property this issue would be seen in a much better light, and would benefit both organizations.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Rinoblast's picture

Rinoblast says

Pine Tree Council is the Boy Scouts. They are the governing/administrative body for the southern half of that state.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

mckinnley says

Why not appeal to the Catholic Church; they seem to like to give money to groups that openly discriminate…..

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Bubbles says

mckinnley
I feel your comment is unfair. We are not looking to preserve this camp for a group that discriminates but for a very large number of boys that have benefited from it over many years. What ever your thoughts are about the organization, you must also realize that not all of the volunteers and or boys adhere to the same thoughts/beliefs that I am sure you are referring to.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

mckinnley says

Bubbles, I am sorry if offended you, but if a young man were to be different in thought or belief he would not be allowed to participate in the scouting organization. I know that there are people in the organization that are tolerant and accepting of others, but on the whole what I have read not so much.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

robc207 says

When I was a Scout we spent nearly every single weekend at Gustin, in all four seasons! I feel the loss of this property cannot be measured in dollars gained. It would be a dramatic lost opportunity, much greater than the estimated sale price. At Gustin you have a "wilder" camp. I think the lack of permanent structures adds to the quality of the place. I hold my Gustin experiences closer to my heart than those of Hinds. I'm just sayin'

I have to agree Rinoblast. Why did they build such an expensive building? Staff too big? Why Portland? There are certainly other places with much lower real estate prices. Too late now for that discussion, I guess. If only there was a way to get money directly to a preservation fund...

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Virgil Sampson says

vink80
100 acres 0n a pond or lake should be worth more than the $375.000 ---- some developer would get that or more for each acre. You people need some professional advice and
not from some greedy developer. ------ (Just a reaction from an outsider who only knows what was just put here in the news.) BUT TALK AROUND !!!!!!!

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Bubbles says

I am a mother of a Life Scout who not only attended Camp Gustin as a Cub Scout and now a Boy Scout but has returned there every year since crossing over to Boy Scouts to help teach the younger scouts at the annual Cub Scout Camporee. Yes, these boys are learning about the outdoors but they are also learning about being good people. The Scout Law lists many of the qualities, kind, courteous, clean, reverent, trustworthy, etc, that we all hope our children learn. We are not just giving these boys some fun activities but we are preparing them to go out into the world and to be proud of what they have learned and accomplished. I can tell you from experience that it is not just the Cub and Boy Scouts that are benefiting from Camp Gustin; my daughter has been involved with the pack and troop since she was little. The boys and leaders welcome in any sibling that wants to join the fun of the camporees that have taken place at Camp Gustin. I hope that PTC rethinks their decision to sell this wonderful place. There has to be another way to get the money they need. Council needs to do what the packs and troops do when they need money, get creative, do your homework; find another way to gain access to funds.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

K0NPHL1C7 says

"Since then, countless boys have learned to swim, tie knots, pitch tents, build fires and save lives at Camp Gustin."

I've never had the chance to swim there (every time I went it was pouring) but just about everything I know about knot-tying, tent-pitching and fire-building I learned at Camp Gustin. They need to keep this camp open.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

cubscoutmom1 says

This is so not an Obama thing, please make these comments about the BOYS! over 61 years thousands boys have enjoyed this camp and it will be a downright shame to take that away from them. I am not sure what the norm is for non profits but it surprises me that 60% of the operating costs of the PTC goes to salaries seems high when that money is raised by the boys and for the boys so when looking to find ways to generate revenue or save money the absolute last place you take from is the boys. This property was donated to the scouts in good faith that it would remain a legacy for generations to come. To sell this property and to not even know specifically where you propose to put the funds is a travesty. Plus ultimately it only puts a band aid on the problem it does not provide a solution. This one move will take away a daycamp for cub scouts, a true outdoor camping experience for boys scouts, a local place to experience the great outdoors for some that may not have means to drive 45 minutes to another location, and more over it will diminish trust amongst citizens which will lower donations to the organization.

Lets work together to come up with alternate solutions!

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

INLINE4NUT says

Its a shame that a properity thta was donated to the BoyScouts has to be put on the Auction Block !!!! They better rethink their stance!!!

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

Rinoblast's picture

Rinoblast says

There are serious questions as to where the money goes in Maine. Sounds like another way to screw the locals while padding the pockets/salaries of those in the LARGE, BRAND NEW Portland office. Maybe they shouldn't have made that investment. And of course it sits empty more than it's sued, no one can camp during the middle of the school week! It's especially sad considering how many troops have put money and hard work into improving their camp sites and doing service projects for camp, like that hand carved totem-sign, the camp picnic tables, painting and refurbishing the fire ring, and many more.

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

fixit001 says

Why not ask OBAMA to bail out the boy scouts OHHH Sorry they have not filled the pockets of the politicians!!! these are kids of working familes and as such are considered by our goverment as non-producing political fund donators so its tough luck for you!!!! While the execs at Citi got thier Millions for bonuses This is probably one institution we dont mind bailing out however that is not ment to be a cart blance to buy buy buy by the Boy Scouts it is ment to support them in a time of need as they have help thousands of our children over the years!!!!

Posted 2 weeks ago (permalink)

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