Sorry if I was vague.. it was late at night and I was in a hurry to go to sleep.
I didn't say any of that.. I was quoting Jefferson.. that is the second part of his quote that you quoted him on. Not my own ideas. So all you've done is refer to Thomas Jefferson's "total ignorance". Not my own.
Mike - I am sorry but these defenses are laughable.
1. What makes something failed? You could argue every society has failed.. right now "Western Civilization" is the most dominant right now and the more religious-based states are in this world, the more corrupt they are. There are, however, many leaders (Hitler, Kim Il-sung) that have noticed the power of organized religion and the fact that people will do disgusting things in the name of having a faith in a higher power, so they destroyed the existing notion of god and created their own statist religion revolving around themselves as the god-figure. That is hardly humanist in any respect.
2. Thanks for demonstrating exactly why Jefferson is influential to humanists. You are quoting him while he was discussing the corruption of Christianity. You don't need to be an atheist to be a humanist. You seem to try to hide this by leaving out what comes after "compare these to the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin", which is this:
1. That there are three Gods.
2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, are nothing.
3 That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit in its faith.
4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.
5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save.
What Mr. Jefferson does here is actually denounce Protestantism for abandoning what are pretty strong humanist ideas.. in fact, I would say the basis of humanism is in fact what Jefferson talks about in #2, that good works and loving thy neighbor are precisely what is most important! Jefferson also makes other pro-humanist statements, that faith should NOT be everything and that it should not be taken advantage of to rationalize disgusting and irrational actions, and then he stresses the importance of reason and the absence of it in his religious contemporaries.
I could go on but your cherry-picking tactics are annoying, it's late, and I'm not even confident this will be seen in the first place.
Time and again? Dude, everything you just said was full of straw men that only gives me the impression you have no idea what humanism or for that matter, Marxism, neo-communism, or socialism are. What are these failed humanist states you speak of? Humanism is a pretty recently formed movement.. and humanists often pull a great deal of their philosophy directly from Founding Fathers like Paine, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Locke, and others..
I did respond to specific parts of the article, but that's what was deleted. I suppose I'll go back. But the ball is in your court.. you are making these claims, or are endorsing articles that do.. you need to back it up with evidence.
This article calls the left wing Jew-hating (I wonder if the 78% of Jews in this country who voted for Obama over McCain are also Jew-hating).. the article also says "leftists worship atheism". People don't worship atheism.. just as people don't worship theism. It's not possible.
This article states that liberals have nothing good to say about John Locke, Thomas Hill Green, or Thomas Jefferson. Show me something where a liberal in government speaks ill of these men.
Show me policies.. direct policies and bills proposed by democratic leaders that are the product of a communist/Marxist philosophy of a classless, governmentless society where everyone owns everything. I imagine anything you'd try to produce would take an enormous leap of faith to get to communism.
I had a whole response typed up but I swear my computer just went on an insane rampage of deleting everything I had! I think my delete key was stuck or something (it started when i was backspacing a couple letters)? I don't know! Anyway, I don't want to type everything I had so I will give the basics.
-That article is utterly ridiculous and it makes completely blind statements without backing ANY of it up or even trying to! Democrats and left wingers in American government are very far from being communists
-Humanism is a world-view philosophy saying we should draw our morals and ethics and reason from the human experience rather than religious texts and dogma. You can be a communist, socialist, capitalist, libertarian, objectivist, or anything else and still be a humanist. It doesn't do anything to dictate political philosophy.
So, I mean.. I guess you can call it left-wing social-justice propaganda? But "social justice" is a hard term to make sound negative.
Mike - do you even know what neoliberalism is? Look it up, man. "Left-wing neo-lib propaganda" is a pretty significant contradiction. You might as well have said "right-wing socialist propaganda".
Okay Dan. Sorry I'm such an unreasonable conservative.. anyway, my friends Bill, Sean, Megyn, Steve, and Bret are waiting to buy me a drink.. gotta go!
While I don't disagree that a lot of conservative Republicans are very quick to ravage anyone who doesn't fall in line perfectly with their ideas (Snowe and Collins are treated so so terribly by Republicans.. I hope if Maine Republicans end up with King or even worse for them, Pingree or Baldacci, they take a step back and think about that), just look at the facts.. King is pretty liberal.. probably even more liberal than Snowe is conservative.
Gov. King doesn't have a flawless record, but there are three reasons I consider very, very important that are almost certain to lead me to voting for him come November:
1. He may be a liberal, but he is a mild-mannered man and that is reflected by his status as an independent as well as his rhetoric. He is not a divisive person, and that, to me, is much more important than what way he leans (although full disclosure, I am more liberal than not). His language is uniting, not dividing. His manner will not contribute to the further division of this country. I have voted for both Senators Collins and Snowe in the past precisely for this reason and would have voted for Senator Snowe again if she was in the race. Senator Snowe left the race because of how divisive Washington is at the precise time we need her the most. Luckily we may have another similar-minded person.
2. I just like the power and attention he brings to the state simply by being an independent. Senators Snowe and Collins are two of the most important senators in the country because they are he is much less likely to give in to having to "take one for the team" as Senator Santorum would say. They weren't "in the tank" for their own party and that is important for me. While I don't know the Republican candidates (I will take a look at whoever the nominee ends up being), my guess is they would in fact be. Congresswoman Pingree or Governor Baldacci certainly would be.
3. It also is a prime time to simply SEND A MESSAGE to Washington. This is not an acceptable way to do govern this country. Things need to change.
This is tremendous news - I wonder if this has any relation to the feelings of Marc Mutty, the Director of Public Affairs for the Catholic Church and co-chair of the Yes on One campaign, who in an incredibly revealing interview for the documentary "Question One", expressed a lot of disappointment and frustration on how the Yes on One campaign was handled (including the demonizing of homosexuals), and how it was allowed to be taken over by consultants from California.
I can't speak for NYA or Hebron but St. Dom's and Catholic education in the Twin Cities has been experiencing dramatic decreases in enrollment and resulting teacher layoffs that have made news for the past few years .. it's doing anything but thriving. Barely a decade ago a new high school was built to be large enough to house students in grades 9-12. Now it has plenty of room for grades 7-12. I don't see how St. Dom's could ever be considered "thriving".
That sounds too much like you want to just give up on a whole lot of kids, though. Is holding back a child over and over going to be what motivates them to learn? A 4th grader should never be demonized for "refusing to learn" because.. well, he's 10 years old. He's likely a victim of circumstance, and we should work hard to change him and find way to motivate him to learn rather than give up on him because he may be holding other kids back.
Tina - NCLB definitely needs to be gotten rid of but it isn't "what is causing our schools to fail". It might be what defines specific schools as failing, but in a broad sense, it isn't responsible for the fact that our schools are failing. When it comes down to it, the primary culprit is culture. This country needs a kick in the face and a drastic change in culture. Education is not seen as nearly as important as it is by such a large amount of Americans. This is a failure of schools, parents, and the United States as a whole. But all we really see are tiny little reforms that think throwing more and more money at schools will fix the situation. Money can help.. there is no question. The schools and youth in this country will not start to truly turn around, however, until we figure out how to implement a drastic change in culture.
I agree these teachers exist. I have had them and I have worked with them. I am the first person to support drastic changes to tenure policies so it is easier to replace these teachers. But you are wrong that they are the norm. They are still very much the exception, especially in Lewiston. And Carl- it is so much more complicated than simply holding students back. I would suggest you do more reading on the challenges of ESL students and a large immigrant population because it isn't a simple situation by any means.
Your first sentence makes it sound like the money is going to go to give all the teachers raises. If any of it is, it's very little. The teachers are doing more than enough work to earn their salaries. Many are placed in extremely challenging positions, and nothing is nearly as black and white as you present it.
Rhee took a bold approach to fix a broken system and change the culture of a failing district. Whether or not she was a success is a matter of opinion, but she deserves credit because we need more people like her that are audacious enough to take risks in overhauling the system. It's hard to argue against the fact that public education in this country needs a big fix, and that fix should be centered as locally as possible.
I approve of most of this plan. The school choice initiative seems to be done in a fairly safe manner that will have more positive effects than negative ones for schools and students.
However, the state government has NO business in providing funding to religious schools. It's a shame this exists as a massive blemish in an otherwise sound set of reforms.
I remember pretty well a story the Sun Journal did about the relationship between Somalis and Bantus a couple years back.
Tina - look at the occasion. It's the 10 year anniversary of their arriving. The SJ's tone in this series has been to look forward with positive indications of what to come. There's plenty of legitimate negative stories that could be done about the Somali population, but I've so rarely seen stories done about random bullying in schools (it happens all over) or about suspension of bus riding services anywhere about any population. The SJ did a couple stories when there were Somali "gangs" of kids preying on innocent people in and around Kennedy Park awhile ago. Yes, the tone of the Sun Journal is for the rest of the community to try and positively progress with the Somali community, because quite frankly.. if you walk around the city listening in to conversations about Somalis, they are SO VERY RARELY about anything positive. Much of what you hear is true, much of what you hear is exaggerated, then a lot of what you hear is simply made up. But the tone ever since they got here among the Lewiston people has been a very negative, xenophobic one. There are positive stories to tell. Why can't we?
Tina - I've worked with Somali kids as an ESL ed tech in Lewiston Public Schools, and your description isn't indicative as the population as a whole. If anything, the most interesting thing about Somali kids is how quickly Americanized they are becoming. They're a tough population to work with, no doubt about that.. but the cases you talk about are few and far between.
There is absolutely no apparent point to this letter. I wasn't aware there were movements to stop celebrating the holidays he listed. What issue is he trying to address, exactly?
Tremendous, tremendous work, Andy. Some of those photographs are equally stunning.
A really telling statement from Mr. Ahmed: “We want our children to keep our cultural heritage," Ahmed said. "We don’t want to lose (the language, the dress code)." I wouldn't be surprised if you found these words verbatim spoken by a French Canadian community leader in the 1920s. The French in our community were able to keep their language for about 2 or 3 generations after that. Since then, English has dominated. I would be surprised if the Somalis kept their language for more than one more generation. The country is far more connected than it was then.. it's much more difficult to live exclusively in a small community of a different language. It isn't a desire we can blame them for having, though. I live in Minneapolis right now, where the largest Somali community in the country sits, having started arriving here in the early 90s (a decade before Lewiston). Since coming here a few months ago, there have been multiple situations where I have been coming up to a Somali man or woman who, based on my experiences with Somalis of their apparent age in Lewiston, I expected them to have a thick accent and to be difficult to understand. Then I am surprised as there is virtually no accent and English would seem to be their primary language. It just goes to show how quickly things can change. The Somalis seem much more integrated into the greater community as well. There are of course plenty of problems with the Somali community as part of the greater Minneapolis community, like gang violence. I know that problem is starting to show signs of propping up around Lewiston, but I think the small nature of the city will keep it from ever being a significant issue.
Ultimately, though, progress in the Somali communities throughout the country is being made. It is far from an easy transition, though. They are coming from a world, culture, and religion that couldn't be any more different than our own, so patience is necessary. Being welcoming rather than alienating is what is most important. Using figures like Mr. Ahmed as a positive example is good for both the Somali and white community to see progress and be more encouraged. Hopefully there will be an increasing amount of positive leaders like him in the future. And I certainly do hope they become more and more involved in our government! Their absence is all too noticeable to this point!
The comments made by Randall and Wilma are exactly why this conversation needs to be brought out on a larger scale. Until that is done, the Somali community won't feel comfortable in Lewiston.
Actually Randall.. the Canadians that came to town did indeed have plenty of issues about how they were treated by the prior citizens of Lewiston. The community here was in fact pretty prejudiced towards them and much like the Somali community, they kept to themselves for decades before being a part of the greater community. One reason for that was because they pretty much became the greater community and the majority of the city.
The way you talk emits a prejudiced tone. Talk respectfully and then maybe you'll deserve to be taken seriously. If there's anyone I see whining, it's you.
There are too many people that make up their minds about someone and will always refuse to alter that no matter what happens. If people are attacking him for what he may NOT have said at yesterday's press conference, they need to look at the big picture. I didn't see anything inflammatory, and I saw what I thought was a genuine desire to start anew. I don't think people are wrong to ask for him to change the way he has talked about the immigrant population up to this point. The things he says are not inflammatory, it's usually how he says them that it could be very easily taken in a way he doesn't intend. That isn't asking him to change his opinion, but how he goes about talking about it. The "welfare population" or "these people" aren't the problem.. the problem is government and its welfare programs. Attack the source, not the result.
The first 23 minutes or so, Bob Macdonald showed us that he is a very capable face for the city of Lewiston. I'm glad he changed his tone, and my guess is the meeting he had last night changed whatever announcement he had for today. The reporter was right to grill him on what he said the other day, and while not many will believe this entire time the way the Paradis campaign was going to pay was because they'd have to respond to how they mischaracterized him after he changed his tone today, he did what he had to do. He apologized and he wants to move on. That's good to hear.
Now, as for the last 6 or 7 minutes... whether he likes it or not, he needs to go on damage control. He may not believe he said anything to legitimately offend the Somali community.. that his words were twisted by the media or his opponents to look like something he didn't say. I saw the debates, I saw things he said.. and while he wasn't blatant, he said things that could easily be taken as a negative statement about the Somali community. The first example that pops into my head was one of the debates where he stated (and I am not quoting verbatim but based on memory) that he liked a lot of the women in the community. Well, it's pretty obvious that this could be taken as implying that he doesn't have very high thoughts about the males in the Somali community. Shortly after saying that, he threw out Zamzam Mohammad's name, which he did again today. It feels like he's using Zamzam as his token Somali. The bottom line, though, is he has offended many in the Somali community. And the Somali community is too important for the future of our city to dismiss their thoughts whether he thinks they are legit or not. I hope he does more to engage himself with the Somali community, listen very carefully to their concerns, and start a very respectful conversation in this city about its divisions.
Overall, I liked what I saw. If what we saw today is the Bob Macdonald we will have as our mayor, the city has nothing to fear. We've seen a Bob Macdonald that would give us reason to fear, and we've seen one that we should be encouraged by. Which one will we get? Time will tell, but I try my best to be optimistic.
It's refreshing to see he has changed his tone, at least for now. He obviously has a lot to learn about how to handle himself in the spotlight. I hope he is able to learn quickly, for the sake of our city. The Bob Macdonald I knew as a kid when he was on the police force was a friendly guy who was good at interacting with kids. The Bob Macdonald I've seen so far has only seemed brash and bitter. If he puts that behind him and brings out the kind of guy I saw as a kid and the kind of guy his supporters are confident he is, he will have an easier time over the next two years, and the people of Lewiston will be much more likely to be open to what he has to say.
We'll see what he has in mind tomorrow afternoon..
You went off on a really poorly made analogy to make this whole big statement that has as little logic as what you were responding to. European-style socialism is pretty far from totalitarianism, as is the concept of socialism itself. You attack the writer of the original letter as throwing out an "all-too typical Democrat rant" and then continue on what anyone could call an "all-too typical Republican rant". This letter bleeds with its own hypocrisy, and only serves to one-up Mr. Vaillancourt's letter. Within your letter is a brand of rabid partisan extremism that is tearing this country apart.
Wait.. did I miss something? Do we know what kind of a car this is? All I know from this and prior stories is that it's a Mercedes SUV. I didn't get a year.. I didn't see them explain how it was paid for. You guys are making assumptions based on one word. The word "Mercedes" comes with the vision of luxury because of its reputation, but the reality is there are a lot of used Mercedes SUVs on the market for less than $10,000. It takes about 5 seconds of searching the internet to find that. Couple that with the fact that many Somalis share vehicles across families, and unless you have proof, you have no grounds for the assumptions you're making.
This woman obviously had no business driving that car when she was.. you have plenty of ground to make character judgments about her based on what she did. Why make assumptions on something you don't have nearly enough knowledge of to do so (if someone can provide me with the year of the Mercedes and evidence on how it was paid for, I'll gladly apologize)?
Great letter taking a different stance than the one I had from a little over a week ago.
We've learned a lot of positive things about education since charter schools began in this country. The public school system is generally pretty timid in taking any drastic steps at changing their system to improve for fear of total failure.
I find it interesting that the person writing the letter is from Poland, which from what I've gathered, is a district that is generally more (commendably) adventurous in its operations than the average system.
One thing about writing letters to the editor is that you have a limited amount of space to say what you want.. I had a lot that I wanted to say that unfortunately I didn't have enough room to say it in.
Dan - First, one thing I am certainly not is part of the "wacko right". I'm pretty moderate and vote democrat at least 60% of the time. I do believe, however, that the regulations the national government has been putting on our schools (most of these coming from No Child Left Behind and the Bush administration, actually) are keeping schools from exploring new ways to educate our children. Part of the culture problem in our schools right now is that they're structured a certain way that isn't all that demanding. You'd think that would be the first thing to change - to go in a direction that would demand more hard work from our students. Unfortunately, because that requires such a dramatic culture shift, the regulated schools can't make those changes very easily. That's where charter schools come in - without having to worried about being structured a certain way, they can explore different and better ways. It certainly is to lump all charter schools into one category because many of them are so different. Take a look at the Coalition of Essential Schools - I used to see Lewiston High School on that list (it was even on that list when I went to school there), but (and this is only from an outsider looking in, I don't know exactly the reason) the school seemed to have a hard time making the changes necessary to really embrace that philosophy.
Second, Dan, the point is giving the opportunity to students whose families CAN'T afford to send them to private schools to have the chance to send their kids to a great school outside the realm of a typical education. Like I said, though, I am not part of the "wacko right" and believe government should be paying for these schools. We can't afford to pay more right now, that's why it's simply relocating funds rather than being new ones in. Smaller schools tend to do better anyway, which is why a lot of the largest ones, often middle and high schools, will separate their students into "teams" - those smaller learning communities help.
Jason - The lottery system really is an unfortunate consequence of the charter school system, that is for sure. And yes, you bring up some other unfortunate elements of the charter school system. "Bad eggs" aren't necessarily filtered as much as you seem to think they are, but otherwise I do see those as necessary evils.
The first girl, Chelsie, can bring her payments down to $200 a month through the income-based payments.
Sometimes I wonder if college is pushed so hard that students aren't shown the actual burdens of what they're going to have to deal with after they graduate. The trending idea is that everyone should be able to go to college no matter what income bracket.. this is where loans come in. Little is told to students about what they're going to have to deal with when they get out of school. I have a four year degree and (manageable but still annoying) $22,000 in debt while I have friends and family who didn't go to college who are in perfectly comfortable situations right now.
This is largely a non-issue that some people like to turn into something bigger than what it is. I worked at a Lewiston elementary school last year that was 30% Muslim and Christmas was still very much a part of the school. In fact, at times I even conceded to myself that it did seem a little odd when I'd see small groups of exclusively Muslim students coloring pictures of Santa Claus and reindeer. I of course can't speak for Lisbon schools which are the ones addressed in this letter, but for the most part, there is plenty of evidence all around schools that Christmas is coming.
Great program.. schools need to do more to award good behavior. It creates a new incentive and lets exemplar students know how appreciated they really are by their teachers, something that can sometimes be overshadowed when a teacher spends so much time dealing with the troublemakers.
The two stories in this series are spectacular so far, but when it comes to Lewiston's schools, especially Longley, it'd be especially interesting if the Sun Journal took a close look at the roots of the challenges that exist. It's frustrating, because I know there is a lot of praise deserved in our schools, but the SJ has never taken a critical look into the Somali population and the societal clashes of how they raise their children vs. the typical way an American child is raised and how THAT presents challenges in our schools. In our press we see nothing but positive stories about the Somali community, while among our citizens the response is mostly negative, and there is resent or dismissal whenever the SJ gives us those positive stories because that's all we see. Why not dig deep and do something more than just a puff piece (even if it IS well deserved)?
I realize I got a bit off topic, but I feel so strongly about this.
fatandhappy.. if you want to have a reasonable discussion about whether it is a good idea to let homosexuals serve openly in the military. But just know you aren't going to be taken very seriously if all you do is throw attacks out there. Part of me thinks this is all just for shock factor anyway.
This is widely supported by the American people and members of our military. There is no reason someone should have to conceal their sexuality to fight for their country. There have been worthy and capable people discharged from the armed forces because their homosexuality was exposed, and who knows how many honorable people have neglected to go into the military because they knew they'd be unable to be themselves.
Any issues that may arise from this won't take long to go away. People will get used to it and that will be that. This is good to see happen.
I'd appreciate you keep the little personal shots out, you know nothing about me and all it does is delegitimize your statement making it less worthy of being taken seriously. Liberal television tripe? Are conservatives keeping us in Afghanistan? Right now I blame the Obama administration for not only keeping us in Afghanistan but increasing the troop count. Thanks for the reminder about 9/11, clearly I had completely forgotten about one of the most memorable moments in my life. Look, I know what the rhetoric is, but staying in Afghanistan isn't saving us from terrorist attacks right now. The real fight is in Pakistan, this is where most of the terrorists we should actually be worried about have migrated. But Pakistan wants to do little to help us in our pursuit, so we're in Afghanistan doing what little we can do there. Hamid Karzai isn't much of a leader and whether we leave now or in 5 or 10 years isn't going to do much for the wellbeing of Afghanistan, but it's doing plenty to sink THIS country into even deeper debt.
Not to mention the hundreds of billions of dollars we're spending a year to keep Hamid Karzai and Pakistan happy.. despite the latter's absolute unwillingness to do anything for us in return. Meanwhile our brave men and women are still coming home in boxes and no one really knows why anymore.
Not much of a question - our entire government is full of hypocrites on both sides of the aisle. Both sides have talked about how important it is to reduce the deficit, but of course now both sides are in favor of adding $1 trillion to it. As long as they get their tax cuts for the rich. As long as they get their money for wind turbines.
Ehh, I may have been wrong about this guy not being completely with it. His head is on straight, he's just a little odd... which isn't unusual for a New England libertarian (anyone ever listen to a New Hampshire free stater talk?). The Newsweek article from not long ago that he features in prominently is interesting. If he ever won a nomination over Snowe that would spell an easy victory for the Democrats, though. He should stick to commentary.
This guy clearly isn't completely with it, but on the surface his views aren't terrible. The libertarian-led part of the Tea Party is a part I wish would come out more. Instead, we're more likely to fall victim to a religious, socially conservative wacko in the mold of Christine O'Donnell or Sharron Angle. So, if this guy's head were on a little more straight I could see myself appreciating some of the stuff he says.. I mean, he's clearly intelligent. Instead, he chooses to drape himself in skull and crossbones and associate himself with a group of people better known for its Angles, O'Donnells and Palins.
I went to Holy Cross K-6 and my favorite teacher in my time there was in the group that was laid off. I can understand the school having to lay teachers off if enrollment is down, but it seemed like their choices may have been a little fishy, using seniority as a key reason to do so.
Great points from both Jeff and Dan (of WDL fame.. great to see you guys on here).
Dan: There is a bit of a difference between immigrants coming here and Rau's story. These were missionaries from one country going to another (although it was under the same empire) and changing the names of the people there. These are people coming here, and it has been a very normal process for people's names to become anglicized.. it happened with the pronunciation of my last name and probably many, many other first last names of people commenting on this website.
BUT, I think the point you're making is still very important. There is certainly a lack of sensitivity from "natives" whenever a group of "foreigners" come in to a new place. We assume that they should do whatever they can to assimilate themselves into their new setting as soon as possible and that it will be very easy, so people may not even second guess the personal effects of something like giving someone an anglicized nickname, especially if it is without their consent.
Just one example of some of the amazing teachers in very challenging situations in the Lewiston School District. This positive press is absolutely deserved.
As someone who both went to Lewiston Public Schools for several years under Levesque and briefly worked in them under him, I think he did a decent job. He has no blaring academic successes, but he did a solid job leading the schools in a tough transition period. The LSJ calls Levesque a "frugal manager", and from what I understand on their coverage of Webster, he will lead in a similar light. It's always important to have a superintendent who can manage money correctly, of course, but I think I'd rather see someone coming in who wants to be known for shaking the system up. Going with the flow and slowly changing certain things is partially why education in this country is so messed up. Things need to be seriously messed around with.
The problem, SC, is that with that system you're telling kids what they're going to be. By setting them down a path early on, you're significantly narrowing their options and opportunities. Ultimately a system like that impedes on the ability to pursue the "American dream".
Before the French started speaking English as their first language after moving to Lewiston. The idea of a Somali radio show one hour a week would, you'd think, be about as uncontroversial as it gets, but still people use it as a venue for xenophobic speech.
There are many, many LEGITIMATE issues to have with many in the Somali community, but when people respond to a harmless story like this with "how about learning english" with 21 people agreeing, you no longer deserve to be taken seriously.
I know what I'm saying, trust me. Again, you've been putting words in my mouth this entire time. I think you've had these arguments before and are assuming I think the same way people who give similar arguments do. If you go back the the first post I made, I stated that I was in favor of allowing the majority to vote gay marriage into law, because I believe that will come fairly soon.
I'm not arguing against the idea of religious groups with lobbies or an influence on public thought, I am arguing against religious-based ideas being the foundation for laws in the country. I haven't said anything about the separation of church and state being in the constitution, I am saying it was clear what our founding fathers thought about separating church and state. And yes, the establishing of an official church for the state is a part of the idea, but another part, that the founding fathers shared, was that they did not want religions to directly influence the government. I don't really feel like going into "The Radicalism of the American Revolution", possibly the most well respected book on the subject, and quoting everything it says there about the founding fathers' attitudes towards religion.
I apologize if I was trying to legitimize the idea of homosexual marriage if that wasn't what you were questioning.
And yes, I'm also sorry for the "it" instead of the "I". I think the guy who posted the numbers will suffice, since I don't really feel like doing all that work. Maybe I should have been a little more clear, since there are probably plenty more actual atheists (that is, someone who is absent of a believe in a god) than self-identifying atheists. There is still a bit of a stigma in our society with that word.. unlike struggling homosexuals who may try to be straight when they are not, however, people who don't have a belief in a god sometimes like to use words that are seen as less extreme sounding like agnostic or non-religious.
Actually I never quoted the constitution. Sorry, man. You can read most any historian, from Wood to Zinn to Bailyn, and it's not hard to find that religion did not mean much if anything to the heavy majority of the founding fathers, and there was absolutely a clear intent to keep government distinctly separate from the church.
And no I haven't bought into any myth that homosexuals were born that way, because I realize that there isn't a definitive answer as to whether they are or not. But, I live by the idea that if someone wants to do something that does not adversely affect me, I have no right to keep them from it.
that homosexuality is wrong, then there is no logical reason why gay marriage should not be legal. That's a fundamental of separating church and state.
On that same page there is another source saying, from exit poll data, 4% of the population is gay.
http://www.nationalsexstudy.indiana.edu/ - This study suggests 7-8%. I tend to think it's somewhere in the 4-8 range. You can find studies all over that say different numbers. But let me appease you for a moment and say it is indeed only 1.51% of the population (I don't believe this poll at all since it's coming from a website based on religion, and the same numbers say only .4% of the population are atheists... it could find you 2 million atheists in a day). That is still over 4 million people. That is more than three times the state of Maine. Homosexuals are a large minority of the population and deserve the same rights as the rest of us.
It's completely normal to the people who are homosexuals, and it doesn't affect anyone or anything else adversely, so why shouldn't we teach it as something that is normal? What makes it abnormal? A very large percentage of the population is homosexual, so it seems pretty normal to me.
If a school decides to have books such as The Prince and the Prince in their library, that's an issue for the community, not one for the state.
The idea that homosexuality is a choice is a fallacious argument, because it doesn't matter. I could care less whether homosexuality is from nature, nurture, or choice. Homosexuality is, in fact, something that does not affect anyone else but the individual and his/her consenting partner. Therefore, people should be left alone to live the way they see fit as long as no one or nothing is being adversely affected. Now, if the government is going to be in the business of granting marriages, it has the duty to accept these individuals as equals and grant them what they deserve.
As for the issue of homosexuality as something that is against the religious morality of several religions, no one is saying churches or mosques have to marry homosexuals. This is a fundamental separation of church vs. state issue. The church should not be forced to recognize people they (in my eyes, wrongfully) deem immoral as married, and if people of these religions are against gay marriage, then they should just look at marriage through the eyes of their church instead of the eyes of the government.
The acceptance of homosexuality is rising, and I am confident that the people of the state of Maine will vote to grant homosexuals the right to marry within the next 10 years if Paul LePage is our governor and keeps the legislature from granting them their right. I do not consider this a major issue if he does in fact become our governor. While several civil rights issues needed the government to change before people's opinions changed, this seems to be shifting much more organically toward the side of equality.
The belief that a god created the world is one of the most popular philosophical beliefs in the world related to how it began. Students should have the opportunity to discuss it. However, there is nothing about creationism that suggest it would be appropriate for science class. Unfortunately, philosophy or world religions classes aren't more widely offered in our high schools. I'm sure almost any of the schools that do offer a world religions or philosophy class do take a look at creationism. It's only unfortunate that not many schools do offer this.
I hope all this person's comments stay up so other sensible people reading this can see for themselves first hand the types of problems we have in this city. I'm not one to make sweeping statements about an entire group of people, but I find that some of the most bigoted view come from the oldest group of people in the city.
You know nothing about my life and your little personal attack is the lamest red herring you could have used. I'm willing to discuss the issues with you, but if you're going to pretend your opinions are somehow more legitimate than mine because you're older than me, then maybe there's no point in trying to have an actual discussion. My guess is that I've had a lot more experience with the Somali community than you have and probably have more insightful things to say than you.
Generally, when people have such a gigantic problem with another group of people, it is not completely unfounded. But, there are ways to go about addressing an issue in a way that will help get a productive dialogue going and then there are hateful ways of whining about something where nothing being said really means anything. Most of the people responding to these stories fall in the latter category. I really am tired of the underlying hate and just complete ignorance in this city. I wish the city itself or a media outlet like the SJ would actually have a public forum where we could address the issues. A town hall meeting or something. Rumors started as soon as Somalis started coming and rumors have only gotten a lot worse. Let's start talking about it, but in a productive way without the hateful words. Seriously.
She may not be the image you think of when you think of Somali women, BearBug, but that's because your image comes from her parents' generation. Like any immigrant culture, as more and more generations grow up as a part of their new nation, they start to assimilate into that culture. We also see a tentativeness to assimilate from the older generation, just like you see in any other culture. People here complain about the lack of assimilation, but the Somalis are following the same path as any other immigrant population. I graduated high school a couple years after this girl did, and I graduated with several Somali girls who had assimilated just like this one. The next generation will have even more, and so on.
I spent last year as an ed tech working specifically with English Language Learners at Montello and there is no truth to your claim that interpreters treat female teachers differently and give them attitude. That is an ABSOLUTELY outrageous claim. The interpreter I worked with was an incredible guy who was very well liked by all the teachers in the school. I'm really, really curious as to where you heard that fallacious claim. There is indeed an unfortunate attitude many Muslims have towards women, but that is usually kept within the family.
Does anyone else see this story as the perfect representation of the sorry state that Lewiston/Auburn is in? I will refrain from saying anything about the people involved in this story, because their actions speak for themselves. Their Facebook conversations say enough. Some people worry about a Casino bringing in the wrong kind of people to Lewiston/Auburn. The wrong kind of people are all around us already. These people remind me of the kinds of people I graduated with at Lewiston High School (or ones who dropped out before they graduated) and see all the time whenever I go out.
None of these teachers should be given any blame. I think that, right now, Lewiston Public Schools is in a really difficult situation with the giant ELL population (and a very challenging population because the kids do not have a home life dictated by American values, then they are expected to become different people when it's time for school). But by doing some shuffling, they are getting funding, and I think that this funding shouldn't simply be put towards more staff and new materials, but in EXPERIMENTING... there is a distinct evasion towards experimenting in Maine public schools in general (for instance, there are no charter schools), and I think a failing school like Longley has absolutely nothing to lose. There should be a complete restructuring of the school, with different experimental methods enacted. LPS is facing an incredible challenge but not an impossible one.
An issue as disgusting and vile as sexual relations with children is something that really hits us hard, as it should. We tend to let out feelings take over, allowing us to jump to conclusions. If anyone hasn't seen the documentary Capturing the Friedmans, you absolutely should. It's the story of a child molestation case similar to this.. two men, a father and son, accused of having sexual relations with children in a computer class they ran. When the allegations popped up, police raided their house and found child pornography belonging to the father, which in their mind immediately made them guilty. The film exposed some improper ways of police enforcement going about handling the case. Rather than asking the children what was done to them, they would say "They did this and this and that, didn't they?" and pressure the children into admitting things that hadn't actually been done.
This man is obviously troubled and in need of some psychological help. If he is indeed guilty of what he has been accused of, he should go to jail. I am in no way accusing the law of ill-play here, as that would also be jumping to conclusions, and we need to be careful before we do something like that to anyone.
At this point I'm willing to take risks, yes. My entire life has been spent in Lewiston, and I have only seen our downtown continue to disintegrate and become more and more pathetic. The city itself has shown no sign of economic growth, and we need to do something. Risks need to be taken instead of having to watch those abandoned buildings sit there for the next generation to have to see. Where is YOUR evidence that a run-down small city like Lewiston was hurt by a the presence of a casino?
Until I see someone with a better idea of what to do with downtown Lewiston, I will fully support a casino. Something has to be done. It's as simple as that.
These last two posts do a perfect job in illustrating exactly what is HURTING Lewiston right now and what is keeping us from progressing. sunnyjournal: If you found yourself living in Mogadishu you would be completely lost in a society unlike anything you've ever seen before. I see Lewistonites all over seem to expect the Somali community to become flag-waving Americans the day they stepped foot on American soil. When any community of immigrants comes to a new place, there is always a rocky period of problems before things can be sorted out. People who don't understand this are clearly oblivious the the history of the Lewiston's French-Canadian and Acadian population. It will get better with each generation. I can already see significant progress with the youngsters in the Somali community. queenhoneybee: You're throwing words out there that are completely uncalled for. You have absolutely nothing constructive to contribute to the conversation. All you can do is whine about how everything out of someone's mouth is a clear example of prejudice. Perhaps instead of both sides jumping to conclusions and forming opinions based on hearsay, we could actually have a constructive conversation about something that's pretty important to our city's present and future?
Recent Comments
Agreed.
Agreed.
Sorry if I was vague.. it was
Sorry if I was vague.. it was late at night and I was in a hurry to go to sleep.
I didn't say any of that.. I was quoting Jefferson.. that is the second part of his quote that you quoted him on. Not my own ideas. So all you've done is refer to Thomas Jefferson's "total ignorance". Not my own.
Here is one source where you can find the letter, with both your quotes and mine: http://lachlan.bluehaze.com.au/lit/jeff17.htm
You can find it numerous other places as well.
Thanks for wishing me a nice sunny day but it's rather cloudy and rainy here in the "other" Twin Cities where I currently reside.
Mike - I am sorry but these
Mike - I am sorry but these defenses are laughable.
1. What makes something failed? You could argue every society has failed.. right now "Western Civilization" is the most dominant right now and the more religious-based states are in this world, the more corrupt they are. There are, however, many leaders (Hitler, Kim Il-sung) that have noticed the power of organized religion and the fact that people will do disgusting things in the name of having a faith in a higher power, so they destroyed the existing notion of god and created their own statist religion revolving around themselves as the god-figure. That is hardly humanist in any respect.
2. Thanks for demonstrating exactly why Jefferson is influential to humanists. You are quoting him while he was discussing the corruption of Christianity. You don't need to be an atheist to be a humanist. You seem to try to hide this by leaving out what comes after "compare these to the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin", which is this:
1. That there are three Gods.
2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, are nothing.
3 That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit in its faith.
4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.
5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save.
What Mr. Jefferson does here is actually denounce Protestantism for abandoning what are pretty strong humanist ideas.. in fact, I would say the basis of humanism is in fact what Jefferson talks about in #2, that good works and loving thy neighbor are precisely what is most important! Jefferson also makes other pro-humanist statements, that faith should NOT be everything and that it should not be taken advantage of to rationalize disgusting and irrational actions, and then he stresses the importance of reason and the absence of it in his religious contemporaries.
I could go on but your cherry-picking tactics are annoying, it's late, and I'm not even confident this will be seen in the first place.
Time and again? Dude,
Time and again? Dude, everything you just said was full of straw men that only gives me the impression you have no idea what humanism or for that matter, Marxism, neo-communism, or socialism are. What are these failed humanist states you speak of? Humanism is a pretty recently formed movement.. and humanists often pull a great deal of their philosophy directly from Founding Fathers like Paine, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Locke, and others..
I did respond to specific parts of the article, but that's what was deleted. I suppose I'll go back. But the ball is in your court.. you are making these claims, or are endorsing articles that do.. you need to back it up with evidence.
This article calls the left wing Jew-hating (I wonder if the 78% of Jews in this country who voted for Obama over McCain are also Jew-hating).. the article also says "leftists worship atheism". People don't worship atheism.. just as people don't worship theism. It's not possible.
This article states that liberals have nothing good to say about John Locke, Thomas Hill Green, or Thomas Jefferson. Show me something where a liberal in government speaks ill of these men.
Show me policies.. direct policies and bills proposed by democratic leaders that are the product of a communist/Marxist philosophy of a classless, governmentless society where everyone owns everything. I imagine anything you'd try to produce would take an enormous leap of faith to get to communism.
I had a whole response typed
I had a whole response typed up but I swear my computer just went on an insane rampage of deleting everything I had! I think my delete key was stuck or something (it started when i was backspacing a couple letters)? I don't know! Anyway, I don't want to type everything I had so I will give the basics.
-That article is utterly ridiculous and it makes completely blind statements without backing ANY of it up or even trying to! Democrats and left wingers in American government are very far from being communists
-Humanism is a world-view philosophy saying we should draw our morals and ethics and reason from the human experience rather than religious texts and dogma. You can be a communist, socialist, capitalist, libertarian, objectivist, or anything else and still be a humanist. It doesn't do anything to dictate political philosophy.
So, I mean.. I guess you can call it left-wing social-justice propaganda? But "social justice" is a hard term to make sound negative.
Mike - do you even know what
Mike - do you even know what neoliberalism is? Look it up, man. "Left-wing neo-lib propaganda" is a pretty significant contradiction. You might as well have said "right-wing socialist propaganda".
Okay Dan. Sorry I'm such an
Okay Dan. Sorry I'm such an unreasonable conservative.. anyway, my friends Bill, Sean, Megyn, Steve, and Bret are waiting to buy me a drink.. gotta go!
While I don't disagree that a
While I don't disagree that a lot of conservative Republicans are very quick to ravage anyone who doesn't fall in line perfectly with their ideas (Snowe and Collins are treated so so terribly by Republicans.. I hope if Maine Republicans end up with King or even worse for them, Pingree or Baldacci, they take a step back and think about that), just look at the facts.. King is pretty liberal.. probably even more liberal than Snowe is conservative.
Gov. King doesn't have a
Gov. King doesn't have a flawless record, but there are three reasons I consider very, very important that are almost certain to lead me to voting for him come November:
1. He may be a liberal, but he is a mild-mannered man and that is reflected by his status as an independent as well as his rhetoric. He is not a divisive person, and that, to me, is much more important than what way he leans (although full disclosure, I am more liberal than not). His language is uniting, not dividing. His manner will not contribute to the further division of this country. I have voted for both Senators Collins and Snowe in the past precisely for this reason and would have voted for Senator Snowe again if she was in the race. Senator Snowe left the race because of how divisive Washington is at the precise time we need her the most. Luckily we may have another similar-minded person.
2. I just like the power and attention he brings to the state simply by being an independent. Senators Snowe and Collins are two of the most important senators in the country because they are he is much less likely to give in to having to "take one for the team" as Senator Santorum would say. They weren't "in the tank" for their own party and that is important for me. While I don't know the Republican candidates (I will take a look at whoever the nominee ends up being), my guess is they would in fact be. Congresswoman Pingree or Governor Baldacci certainly would be.
3. It also is a prime time to simply SEND A MESSAGE to Washington. This is not an acceptable way to do govern this country. Things need to change.
This is tremendous news - I
This is tremendous news - I wonder if this has any relation to the feelings of Marc Mutty, the Director of Public Affairs for the Catholic Church and co-chair of the Yes on One campaign, who in an incredibly revealing interview for the documentary "Question One", expressed a lot of disappointment and frustration on how the Yes on One campaign was handled (including the demonizing of homosexuals), and how it was allowed to be taken over by consultants from California.
I can't speak for NYA or
I can't speak for NYA or Hebron but St. Dom's and Catholic education in the Twin Cities has been experiencing dramatic decreases in enrollment and resulting teacher layoffs that have made news for the past few years .. it's doing anything but thriving. Barely a decade ago a new high school was built to be large enough to house students in grades 9-12. Now it has plenty of room for grades 7-12. I don't see how St. Dom's could ever be considered "thriving".
That sounds too much like you
That sounds too much like you want to just give up on a whole lot of kids, though. Is holding back a child over and over going to be what motivates them to learn? A 4th grader should never be demonized for "refusing to learn" because.. well, he's 10 years old. He's likely a victim of circumstance, and we should work hard to change him and find way to motivate him to learn rather than give up on him because he may be holding other kids back.
Tina - NCLB definitely needs
Tina - NCLB definitely needs to be gotten rid of but it isn't "what is causing our schools to fail". It might be what defines specific schools as failing, but in a broad sense, it isn't responsible for the fact that our schools are failing. When it comes down to it, the primary culprit is culture. This country needs a kick in the face and a drastic change in culture. Education is not seen as nearly as important as it is by such a large amount of Americans. This is a failure of schools, parents, and the United States as a whole. But all we really see are tiny little reforms that think throwing more and more money at schools will fix the situation. Money can help.. there is no question. The schools and youth in this country will not start to truly turn around, however, until we figure out how to implement a drastic change in culture.
I agree these teachers exist.
I agree these teachers exist. I have had them and I have worked with them. I am the first person to support drastic changes to tenure policies so it is easier to replace these teachers. But you are wrong that they are the norm. They are still very much the exception, especially in Lewiston. And Carl- it is so much more complicated than simply holding students back. I would suggest you do more reading on the challenges of ESL students and a large immigrant population because it isn't a simple situation by any means.
Your first sentence makes it
Your first sentence makes it sound like the money is going to go to give all the teachers raises. If any of it is, it's very little. The teachers are doing more than enough work to earn their salaries. Many are placed in extremely challenging positions, and nothing is nearly as black and white as you present it.
Rhee took a bold approach to
Rhee took a bold approach to fix a broken system and change the culture of a failing district. Whether or not she was a success is a matter of opinion, but she deserves credit because we need more people like her that are audacious enough to take risks in overhauling the system. It's hard to argue against the fact that public education in this country needs a big fix, and that fix should be centered as locally as possible.
I approve of most of this
I approve of most of this plan. The school choice initiative seems to be done in a fairly safe manner that will have more positive effects than negative ones for schools and students.
However, the state government has NO business in providing funding to religious schools. It's a shame this exists as a massive blemish in an otherwise sound set of reforms.
Well this was fun to read.
Well this was fun to read.
I had a response written up
I had a response written up but I realized.. you really weren't worth it.
He's not only a good guy and
He's not only a good guy and a good fit for this position, he's my uncle.
I remember pretty well a
I remember pretty well a story the Sun Journal did about the relationship between Somalis and Bantus a couple years back.
Tina - look at the occasion. It's the 10 year anniversary of their arriving. The SJ's tone in this series has been to look forward with positive indications of what to come. There's plenty of legitimate negative stories that could be done about the Somali population, but I've so rarely seen stories done about random bullying in schools (it happens all over) or about suspension of bus riding services anywhere about any population. The SJ did a couple stories when there were Somali "gangs" of kids preying on innocent people in and around Kennedy Park awhile ago. Yes, the tone of the Sun Journal is for the rest of the community to try and positively progress with the Somali community, because quite frankly.. if you walk around the city listening in to conversations about Somalis, they are SO VERY RARELY about anything positive. Much of what you hear is true, much of what you hear is exaggerated, then a lot of what you hear is simply made up. But the tone ever since they got here among the Lewiston people has been a very negative, xenophobic one. There are positive stories to tell. Why can't we?
Tina - I've worked with
Tina - I've worked with Somali kids as an ESL ed tech in Lewiston Public Schools, and your description isn't indicative as the population as a whole. If anything, the most interesting thing about Somali kids is how quickly Americanized they are becoming. They're a tough population to work with, no doubt about that.. but the cases you talk about are few and far between.
There is absolutely no
There is absolutely no apparent point to this letter. I wasn't aware there were movements to stop celebrating the holidays he listed. What issue is he trying to address, exactly?
Tremendous, tremendous work,
Tremendous, tremendous work, Andy. Some of those photographs are equally stunning.
A really telling statement from Mr. Ahmed: “We want our children to keep our cultural heritage," Ahmed said. "We don’t want to lose (the language, the dress code)." I wouldn't be surprised if you found these words verbatim spoken by a French Canadian community leader in the 1920s. The French in our community were able to keep their language for about 2 or 3 generations after that. Since then, English has dominated. I would be surprised if the Somalis kept their language for more than one more generation. The country is far more connected than it was then.. it's much more difficult to live exclusively in a small community of a different language. It isn't a desire we can blame them for having, though. I live in Minneapolis right now, where the largest Somali community in the country sits, having started arriving here in the early 90s (a decade before Lewiston). Since coming here a few months ago, there have been multiple situations where I have been coming up to a Somali man or woman who, based on my experiences with Somalis of their apparent age in Lewiston, I expected them to have a thick accent and to be difficult to understand. Then I am surprised as there is virtually no accent and English would seem to be their primary language. It just goes to show how quickly things can change. The Somalis seem much more integrated into the greater community as well. There are of course plenty of problems with the Somali community as part of the greater Minneapolis community, like gang violence. I know that problem is starting to show signs of propping up around Lewiston, but I think the small nature of the city will keep it from ever being a significant issue.
Ultimately, though, progress in the Somali communities throughout the country is being made. It is far from an easy transition, though. They are coming from a world, culture, and religion that couldn't be any more different than our own, so patience is necessary. Being welcoming rather than alienating is what is most important. Using figures like Mr. Ahmed as a positive example is good for both the Somali and white community to see progress and be more encouraged. Hopefully there will be an increasing amount of positive leaders like him in the future. And I certainly do hope they become more and more involved in our government! Their absence is all too noticeable to this point!
I don't know how you expect
I don't know how you expect to be taken seriously, Mr. Pond.
The comments made by Randall
The comments made by Randall and Wilma are exactly why this conversation needs to be brought out on a larger scale. Until that is done, the Somali community won't feel comfortable in Lewiston.
Actually Randall.. the Canadians that came to town did indeed have plenty of issues about how they were treated by the prior citizens of Lewiston. The community here was in fact pretty prejudiced towards them and much like the Somali community, they kept to themselves for decades before being a part of the greater community. One reason for that was because they pretty much became the greater community and the majority of the city.
The way you talk emits a prejudiced tone. Talk respectfully and then maybe you'll deserve to be taken seriously. If there's anyone I see whining, it's you.
There are too many people
There are too many people that make up their minds about someone and will always refuse to alter that no matter what happens. If people are attacking him for what he may NOT have said at yesterday's press conference, they need to look at the big picture. I didn't see anything inflammatory, and I saw what I thought was a genuine desire to start anew. I don't think people are wrong to ask for him to change the way he has talked about the immigrant population up to this point. The things he says are not inflammatory, it's usually how he says them that it could be very easily taken in a way he doesn't intend. That isn't asking him to change his opinion, but how he goes about talking about it. The "welfare population" or "these people" aren't the problem.. the problem is government and its welfare programs. Attack the source, not the result.
The first 23 minutes or so,
The first 23 minutes or so, Bob Macdonald showed us that he is a very capable face for the city of Lewiston. I'm glad he changed his tone, and my guess is the meeting he had last night changed whatever announcement he had for today. The reporter was right to grill him on what he said the other day, and while not many will believe this entire time the way the Paradis campaign was going to pay was because they'd have to respond to how they mischaracterized him after he changed his tone today, he did what he had to do. He apologized and he wants to move on. That's good to hear.
Now, as for the last 6 or 7 minutes... whether he likes it or not, he needs to go on damage control. He may not believe he said anything to legitimately offend the Somali community.. that his words were twisted by the media or his opponents to look like something he didn't say. I saw the debates, I saw things he said.. and while he wasn't blatant, he said things that could easily be taken as a negative statement about the Somali community. The first example that pops into my head was one of the debates where he stated (and I am not quoting verbatim but based on memory) that he liked a lot of the women in the community. Well, it's pretty obvious that this could be taken as implying that he doesn't have very high thoughts about the males in the Somali community. Shortly after saying that, he threw out Zamzam Mohammad's name, which he did again today. It feels like he's using Zamzam as his token Somali. The bottom line, though, is he has offended many in the Somali community. And the Somali community is too important for the future of our city to dismiss their thoughts whether he thinks they are legit or not. I hope he does more to engage himself with the Somali community, listen very carefully to their concerns, and start a very respectful conversation in this city about its divisions.
Overall, I liked what I saw. If what we saw today is the Bob Macdonald we will have as our mayor, the city has nothing to fear. We've seen a Bob Macdonald that would give us reason to fear, and we've seen one that we should be encouraged by. Which one will we get? Time will tell, but I try my best to be optimistic.
It's refreshing to see he has
It's refreshing to see he has changed his tone, at least for now. He obviously has a lot to learn about how to handle himself in the spotlight. I hope he is able to learn quickly, for the sake of our city. The Bob Macdonald I knew as a kid when he was on the police force was a friendly guy who was good at interacting with kids. The Bob Macdonald I've seen so far has only seemed brash and bitter. If he puts that behind him and brings out the kind of guy I saw as a kid and the kind of guy his supporters are confident he is, he will have an easier time over the next two years, and the people of Lewiston will be much more likely to be open to what he has to say.
We'll see what he has in mind tomorrow afternoon..
Great to hear guys, keep it
Great to hear guys, keep it up!
You went off on a really
You went off on a really poorly made analogy to make this whole big statement that has as little logic as what you were responding to. European-style socialism is pretty far from totalitarianism, as is the concept of socialism itself. You attack the writer of the original letter as throwing out an "all-too typical Democrat rant" and then continue on what anyone could call an "all-too typical Republican rant". This letter bleeds with its own hypocrisy, and only serves to one-up Mr. Vaillancourt's letter. Within your letter is a brand of rabid partisan extremism that is tearing this country apart.
Did I miss something?
Wait.. did I miss something? Do we know what kind of a car this is? All I know from this and prior stories is that it's a Mercedes SUV. I didn't get a year.. I didn't see them explain how it was paid for. You guys are making assumptions based on one word. The word "Mercedes" comes with the vision of luxury because of its reputation, but the reality is there are a lot of used Mercedes SUVs on the market for less than $10,000. It takes about 5 seconds of searching the internet to find that. Couple that with the fact that many Somalis share vehicles across families, and unless you have proof, you have no grounds for the assumptions you're making.
This woman obviously had no business driving that car when she was.. you have plenty of ground to make character judgments about her based on what she did. Why make assumptions on something you don't have nearly enough knowledge of to do so (if someone can provide me with the year of the Mercedes and evidence on how it was paid for, I'll gladly apologize)?
Great letter
Great letter taking a different stance than the one I had from a little over a week ago.
We've learned a lot of positive things about education since charter schools began in this country. The public school system is generally pretty timid in taking any drastic steps at changing their system to improve for fear of total failure.
I find it interesting that the person writing the letter is from Poland, which from what I've gathered, is a district that is generally more (commendably) adventurous in its operations than the average system.
Great to hear - keep it up!
Great to hear - keep it up! This one school is so crucially important to the future of the city.
One thing about writing
One thing about writing letters to the editor is that you have a limited amount of space to say what you want.. I had a lot that I wanted to say that unfortunately I didn't have enough room to say it in.
Dan - First, one thing I am certainly not is part of the "wacko right". I'm pretty moderate and vote democrat at least 60% of the time. I do believe, however, that the regulations the national government has been putting on our schools (most of these coming from No Child Left Behind and the Bush administration, actually) are keeping schools from exploring new ways to educate our children. Part of the culture problem in our schools right now is that they're structured a certain way that isn't all that demanding. You'd think that would be the first thing to change - to go in a direction that would demand more hard work from our students. Unfortunately, because that requires such a dramatic culture shift, the regulated schools can't make those changes very easily. That's where charter schools come in - without having to worried about being structured a certain way, they can explore different and better ways. It certainly is to lump all charter schools into one category because many of them are so different. Take a look at the Coalition of Essential Schools - I used to see Lewiston High School on that list (it was even on that list when I went to school there), but (and this is only from an outsider looking in, I don't know exactly the reason) the school seemed to have a hard time making the changes necessary to really embrace that philosophy.
Second, Dan, the point is giving the opportunity to students whose families CAN'T afford to send them to private schools to have the chance to send their kids to a great school outside the realm of a typical education. Like I said, though, I am not part of the "wacko right" and believe government should be paying for these schools. We can't afford to pay more right now, that's why it's simply relocating funds rather than being new ones in. Smaller schools tend to do better anyway, which is why a lot of the largest ones, often middle and high schools, will separate their students into "teams" - those smaller learning communities help.
Jason - The lottery system really is an unfortunate consequence of the charter school system, that is for sure. And yes, you bring up some other unfortunate elements of the charter school system. "Bad eggs" aren't necessarily filtered as much as you seem to think they are, but otherwise I do see those as necessary evils.
The first girl, Chelsie, can
The first girl, Chelsie, can bring her payments down to $200 a month through the income-based payments.
Sometimes I wonder if college is pushed so hard that students aren't shown the actual burdens of what they're going to have to deal with after they graduate. The trending idea is that everyone should be able to go to college no matter what income bracket.. this is where loans come in. Little is told to students about what they're going to have to deal with when they get out of school. I have a four year degree and (manageable but still annoying) $22,000 in debt while I have friends and family who didn't go to college who are in perfectly comfortable situations right now.
What's a "samolian" woman?
What's a "samolian" woman?
His rhetoric reminds me of
His rhetoric reminds me of Chris Christie. Let's home his governing also does so.
Schools still celebrate Christmas
This is largely a non-issue that some people like to turn into something bigger than what it is. I worked at a Lewiston elementary school last year that was 30% Muslim and Christmas was still very much a part of the school. In fact, at times I even conceded to myself that it did seem a little odd when I'd see small groups of exclusively Muslim students coloring pictures of Santa Claus and reindeer. I of course can't speak for Lisbon schools which are the ones addressed in this letter, but for the most part, there is plenty of evidence all around schools that Christmas is coming.
Thumbs up
Great program.. schools need to do more to award good behavior. It creates a new incentive and lets exemplar students know how appreciated they really are by their teachers, something that can sometimes be overshadowed when a teacher spends so much time dealing with the troublemakers.
The two stories in this series are spectacular so far, but when it comes to Lewiston's schools, especially Longley, it'd be especially interesting if the Sun Journal took a close look at the roots of the challenges that exist. It's frustrating, because I know there is a lot of praise deserved in our schools, but the SJ has never taken a critical look into the Somali population and the societal clashes of how they raise their children vs. the typical way an American child is raised and how THAT presents challenges in our schools. In our press we see nothing but positive stories about the Somali community, while among our citizens the response is mostly negative, and there is resent or dismissal whenever the SJ gives us those positive stories because that's all we see. Why not dig deep and do something more than just a puff piece (even if it IS well deserved)?
I realize I got a bit off topic, but I feel so strongly about this.
Oops
My first sentence was not a complete one. But you can figure out how I may have finished it. Sorry.
Also, tron... you aren't helping. But when do you ever?
fatandhappy.. if you want to
fatandhappy.. if you want to have a reasonable discussion about whether it is a good idea to let homosexuals serve openly in the military. But just know you aren't going to be taken very seriously if all you do is throw attacks out there. Part of me thinks this is all just for shock factor anyway.
This is widely supported by
This is widely supported by the American people and members of our military. There is no reason someone should have to conceal their sexuality to fight for their country. There have been worthy and capable people discharged from the armed forces because their homosexuality was exposed, and who knows how many honorable people have neglected to go into the military because they knew they'd be unable to be themselves.
Any issues that may arise from this won't take long to go away. People will get used to it and that will be that. This is good to see happen.
Thank you, Olympia. Let's get
Thank you, Olympia. Let's get this issue settled and move on with our lives.
I'd appreciate you keep the
I'd appreciate you keep the little personal shots out, you know nothing about me and all it does is delegitimize your statement making it less worthy of being taken seriously. Liberal television tripe? Are conservatives keeping us in Afghanistan? Right now I blame the Obama administration for not only keeping us in Afghanistan but increasing the troop count. Thanks for the reminder about 9/11, clearly I had completely forgotten about one of the most memorable moments in my life. Look, I know what the rhetoric is, but staying in Afghanistan isn't saving us from terrorist attacks right now. The real fight is in Pakistan, this is where most of the terrorists we should actually be worried about have migrated. But Pakistan wants to do little to help us in our pursuit, so we're in Afghanistan doing what little we can do there. Hamid Karzai isn't much of a leader and whether we leave now or in 5 or 10 years isn't going to do much for the wellbeing of Afghanistan, but it's doing plenty to sink THIS country into even deeper debt.
Not to mention the hundreds
Not to mention the hundreds of billions of dollars we're spending a year to keep Hamid Karzai and Pakistan happy.. despite the latter's absolute unwillingness to do anything for us in return. Meanwhile our brave men and women are still coming home in boxes and no one really knows why anymore.
Not much of a question - our
Not much of a question - our entire government is full of hypocrites on both sides of the aisle. Both sides have talked about how important it is to reduce the deficit, but of course now both sides are in favor of adding $1 trillion to it. As long as they get their tax cuts for the rich. As long as they get their money for wind turbines.
Ehh, I may have been wrong
Ehh, I may have been wrong about this guy not being completely with it. His head is on straight, he's just a little odd... which isn't unusual for a New England libertarian (anyone ever listen to a New Hampshire free stater talk?). The Newsweek article from not long ago that he features in prominently is interesting. If he ever won a nomination over Snowe that would spell an easy victory for the Democrats, though. He should stick to commentary.
This guy clearly isn't
This guy clearly isn't completely with it, but on the surface his views aren't terrible. The libertarian-led part of the Tea Party is a part I wish would come out more. Instead, we're more likely to fall victim to a religious, socially conservative wacko in the mold of Christine O'Donnell or Sharron Angle. So, if this guy's head were on a little more straight I could see myself appreciating some of the stuff he says.. I mean, he's clearly intelligent. Instead, he chooses to drape himself in skull and crossbones and associate himself with a group of people better known for its Angles, O'Donnells and Palins.
I went to Holy Cross K-6 and
I went to Holy Cross K-6 and my favorite teacher in my time there was in the group that was laid off. I can understand the school having to lay teachers off if enrollment is down, but it seemed like their choices may have been a little fishy, using seniority as a key reason to do so.
Great points from both Jeff
Great points from both Jeff and Dan (of WDL fame.. great to see you guys on here).
Dan: There is a bit of a difference between immigrants coming here and Rau's story. These were missionaries from one country going to another (although it was under the same empire) and changing the names of the people there. These are people coming here, and it has been a very normal process for people's names to become anglicized.. it happened with the pronunciation of my last name and probably many, many other first last names of people commenting on this website.
BUT, I think the point you're making is still very important. There is certainly a lack of sensitivity from "natives" whenever a group of "foreigners" come in to a new place. We assume that they should do whatever they can to assimilate themselves into their new setting as soon as possible and that it will be very easy, so people may not even second guess the personal effects of something like giving someone an anglicized nickname, especially if it is without their consent.
Just one example of some of
Just one example of some of the amazing teachers in very challenging situations in the Lewiston School District. This positive press is absolutely deserved.
As someone who both went to
As someone who both went to Lewiston Public Schools for several years under Levesque and briefly worked in them under him, I think he did a decent job. He has no blaring academic successes, but he did a solid job leading the schools in a tough transition period. The LSJ calls Levesque a "frugal manager", and from what I understand on their coverage of Webster, he will lead in a similar light. It's always important to have a superintendent who can manage money correctly, of course, but I think I'd rather see someone coming in who wants to be known for shaking the system up. Going with the flow and slowly changing certain things is partially why education in this country is so messed up. Things need to be seriously messed around with.
That wasn't meant to be a
That wasn't meant to be a shot at the whole German system.. there's a lot we could learn from it, most certainly. Just addressing one part.
The problem, SC, is that with
The problem, SC, is that with that system you're telling kids what they're going to be. By setting them down a path early on, you're significantly narrowing their options and opportunities. Ultimately a system like that impedes on the ability to pursue the "American dream".
There are problems with
There are problems with Lewiston/Auburn schools, of course, but using NCLB to assess them is a joke.
It took decades..
Before the French started speaking English as their first language after moving to Lewiston. The idea of a Somali radio show one hour a week would, you'd think, be about as uncontroversial as it gets, but still people use it as a venue for xenophobic speech.
There are many, many LEGITIMATE issues to have with many in the Somali community, but when people respond to a harmless story like this with "how about learning english" with 21 people agreeing, you no longer deserve to be taken seriously.
..
I know what I'm saying, trust me. Again, you've been putting words in my mouth this entire time. I think you've had these arguments before and are assuming I think the same way people who give similar arguments do. If you go back the the first post I made, I stated that I was in favor of allowing the majority to vote gay marriage into law, because I believe that will come fairly soon.
I'm not arguing against the idea of religious groups with lobbies or an influence on public thought, I am arguing against religious-based ideas being the foundation for laws in the country. I haven't said anything about the separation of church and state being in the constitution, I am saying it was clear what our founding fathers thought about separating church and state. And yes, the establishing of an official church for the state is a part of the idea, but another part, that the founding fathers shared, was that they did not want religions to directly influence the government. I don't really feel like going into "The Radicalism of the American Revolution", possibly the most well respected book on the subject, and quoting everything it says there about the founding fathers' attitudes towards religion.
Alright
I apologize if I was trying to legitimize the idea of homosexual marriage if that wasn't what you were questioning.
And yes, I'm also sorry for the "it" instead of the "I". I think the guy who posted the numbers will suffice, since I don't really feel like doing all that work. Maybe I should have been a little more clear, since there are probably plenty more actual atheists (that is, someone who is absent of a believe in a god) than self-identifying atheists. There is still a bit of a stigma in our society with that word.. unlike struggling homosexuals who may try to be straight when they are not, however, people who don't have a belief in a god sometimes like to use words that are seen as less extreme sounding like agnostic or non-religious.
Yeah, logical.
Believing in a god doesn't make him real. And believing in him doesn't mean he exists. And believing in him won't put you in heaven.
I'll just sit right here and do nothing.
Hmm
Actually I never quoted the constitution. Sorry, man. You can read most any historian, from Wood to Zinn to Bailyn, and it's not hard to find that religion did not mean much if anything to the heavy majority of the founding fathers, and there was absolutely a clear intent to keep government distinctly separate from the church.
And no I haven't bought into any myth that homosexuals were born that way, because I realize that there isn't a definitive answer as to whether they are or not. But, I live by the idea that if someone wants to do something that does not adversely affect me, I have no right to keep them from it.
If you can't site anything but God/religion as the reason..
that homosexuality is wrong, then there is no logical reason why gay marriage should not be legal. That's a fundamental of separating church and state.
On that same page there is
On that same page there is another source saying, from exit poll data, 4% of the population is gay.
http://www.nationalsexstudy.indiana.edu/ - This study suggests 7-8%. I tend to think it's somewhere in the 4-8 range. You can find studies all over that say different numbers. But let me appease you for a moment and say it is indeed only 1.51% of the population (I don't believe this poll at all since it's coming from a website based on religion, and the same numbers say only .4% of the population are atheists... it could find you 2 million atheists in a day). That is still over 4 million people. That is more than three times the state of Maine. Homosexuals are a large minority of the population and deserve the same rights as the rest of us.
Well, what makes something normal?
It's completely normal to the people who are homosexuals, and it doesn't affect anyone or anything else adversely, so why shouldn't we teach it as something that is normal? What makes it abnormal? A very large percentage of the population is homosexual, so it seems pretty normal to me.
If a school decides to have books such as The Prince and the Prince in their library, that's an issue for the community, not one for the state.
The whole choice thing issue is a little ridiculous
The idea that homosexuality is a choice is a fallacious argument, because it doesn't matter. I could care less whether homosexuality is from nature, nurture, or choice. Homosexuality is, in fact, something that does not affect anyone else but the individual and his/her consenting partner. Therefore, people should be left alone to live the way they see fit as long as no one or nothing is being adversely affected. Now, if the government is going to be in the business of granting marriages, it has the duty to accept these individuals as equals and grant them what they deserve.
As for the issue of homosexuality as something that is against the religious morality of several religions, no one is saying churches or mosques have to marry homosexuals. This is a fundamental separation of church vs. state issue. The church should not be forced to recognize people they (in my eyes, wrongfully) deem immoral as married, and if people of these religions are against gay marriage, then they should just look at marriage through the eyes of their church instead of the eyes of the government.
The acceptance of homosexuality is rising, and I am confident that the people of the state of Maine will vote to grant homosexuals the right to marry within the next 10 years if Paul LePage is our governor and keeps the legislature from granting them their right. I do not consider this a major issue if he does in fact become our governor. While several civil rights issues needed the government to change before people's opinions changed, this seems to be shifting much more organically toward the side of equality.
Creationism belongs in schools, just not in science class
The belief that a god created the world is one of the most popular philosophical beliefs in the world related to how it began. Students should have the opportunity to discuss it. However, there is nothing about creationism that suggest it would be appropriate for science class. Unfortunately, philosophy or world religions classes aren't more widely offered in our high schools. I'm sure almost any of the schools that do offer a world religions or philosophy class do take a look at creationism. It's only unfortunate that not many schools do offer this.
Hmm
I hope all this person's comments stay up so other sensible people reading this can see for themselves first hand the types of problems we have in this city. I'm not one to make sweeping statements about an entire group of people, but I find that some of the most bigoted view come from the oldest group of people in the city.
Oh, please
You know nothing about my life and your little personal attack is the lamest red herring you could have used. I'm willing to discuss the issues with you, but if you're going to pretend your opinions are somehow more legitimate than mine because you're older than me, then maybe there's no point in trying to have an actual discussion. My guess is that I've had a lot more experience with the Somali community than you have and probably have more insightful things to say than you.
Well..
If that's the case, it sounds no different than a large percentage of white males in this city. Get over it. You aren't helping your case.
When it all comes down to it
Generally, when people have such a gigantic problem with another group of people, it is not completely unfounded. But, there are ways to go about addressing an issue in a way that will help get a productive dialogue going and then there are hateful ways of whining about something where nothing being said really means anything. Most of the people responding to these stories fall in the latter category. I really am tired of the underlying hate and just complete ignorance in this city. I wish the city itself or a media outlet like the SJ would actually have a public forum where we could address the issues. A town hall meeting or something. Rumors started as soon as Somalis started coming and rumors have only gotten a lot worse. Let's start talking about it, but in a productive way without the hateful words. Seriously.
That scent
That scent is a cultural aroma/perfume they put on themselves. I forget what it's called. Surely that's one cultural difference you can respect?
She's not far from the norm at all
She may not be the image you think of when you think of Somali women, BearBug, but that's because your image comes from her parents' generation. Like any immigrant culture, as more and more generations grow up as a part of their new nation, they start to assimilate into that culture. We also see a tentativeness to assimilate from the older generation, just like you see in any other culture. People here complain about the lack of assimilation, but the Somalis are following the same path as any other immigrant population. I graduated high school a couple years after this girl did, and I graduated with several Somali girls who had assimilated just like this one. The next generation will have even more, and so on.
88togus, where do you get your information?
I spent last year as an ed tech working specifically with English Language Learners at Montello and there is no truth to your claim that interpreters treat female teachers differently and give them attitude. That is an ABSOLUTELY outrageous claim. The interpreter I worked with was an incredible guy who was very well liked by all the teachers in the school. I'm really, really curious as to where you heard that fallacious claim. There is indeed an unfortunate attitude many Muslims have towards women, but that is usually kept within the family.
Does anyone else see this
Does anyone else see this story as the perfect representation of the sorry state that Lewiston/Auburn is in? I will refrain from saying anything about the people involved in this story, because their actions speak for themselves. Their Facebook conversations say enough. Some people worry about a Casino bringing in the wrong kind of people to Lewiston/Auburn. The wrong kind of people are all around us already. These people remind me of the kinds of people I graduated with at Lewiston High School (or ones who dropped out before they graduated) and see all the time whenever I go out.
Money, not the teachers
None of these teachers should be given any blame. I think that, right now, Lewiston Public Schools is in a really difficult situation with the giant ELL population (and a very challenging population because the kids do not have a home life dictated by American values, then they are expected to become different people when it's time for school). But by doing some shuffling, they are getting funding, and I think that this funding shouldn't simply be put towards more staff and new materials, but in EXPERIMENTING... there is a distinct evasion towards experimenting in Maine public schools in general (for instance, there are no charter schools), and I think a failing school like Longley has absolutely nothing to lose. There should be a complete restructuring of the school, with different experimental methods enacted. LPS is facing an incredible challenge but not an impossible one.
We need to be careful and not jump to conclusions
An issue as disgusting and vile as sexual relations with children is something that really hits us hard, as it should. We tend to let out feelings take over, allowing us to jump to conclusions. If anyone hasn't seen the documentary Capturing the Friedmans, you absolutely should. It's the story of a child molestation case similar to this.. two men, a father and son, accused of having sexual relations with children in a computer class they ran. When the allegations popped up, police raided their house and found child pornography belonging to the father, which in their mind immediately made them guilty. The film exposed some improper ways of police enforcement going about handling the case. Rather than asking the children what was done to them, they would say "They did this and this and that, didn't they?" and pressure the children into admitting things that hadn't actually been done.
This man is obviously troubled and in need of some psychological help. If he is indeed guilty of what he has been accused of, he should go to jail. I am in no way accusing the law of ill-play here, as that would also be jumping to conclusions, and we need to be careful before we do something like that to anyone.
At this point I'm willing to
At this point I'm willing to take risks, yes. My entire life has been spent in Lewiston, and I have only seen our downtown continue to disintegrate and become more and more pathetic. The city itself has shown no sign of economic growth, and we need to do something. Risks need to be taken instead of having to watch those abandoned buildings sit there for the next generation to have to see. Where is YOUR evidence that a run-down small city like Lewiston was hurt by a the presence of a casino?
Until I see someone with a
Until I see someone with a better idea of what to do with downtown Lewiston, I will fully support a casino. Something has to be done. It's as simple as that.
These last two posts do a
These last two posts do a perfect job in illustrating exactly what is HURTING Lewiston right now and what is keeping us from progressing. sunnyjournal: If you found yourself living in Mogadishu you would be completely lost in a society unlike anything you've ever seen before. I see Lewistonites all over seem to expect the Somali community to become flag-waving Americans the day they stepped foot on American soil. When any community of immigrants comes to a new place, there is always a rocky period of problems before things can be sorted out. People who don't understand this are clearly oblivious the the history of the Lewiston's French-Canadian and Acadian population. It will get better with each generation. I can already see significant progress with the youngsters in the Somali community. queenhoneybee: You're throwing words out there that are completely uncalled for. You have absolutely nothing constructive to contribute to the conversation. All you can do is whine about how everything out of someone's mouth is a clear example of prejudice. Perhaps instead of both sides jumping to conclusions and forming opinions based on hearsay, we could actually have a constructive conversation about something that's pretty important to our city's present and future?